Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ." And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'" ---------------------------- I thought that was a pretty slick approach to the terrorist problem. George's God against their god. why can't America (at that particular point in history) invoke God, while the terrorist cries Allah Akbar?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because this show how all the gods fight. So really there is no god. Is really about money.
The war in afghanistan is justifiable for secular reasons, in fact Obama has escalated it. Iraq, that's another question, and while I am no fan of it I don't pin it on Christianity. I agree with you that Bush was out of bounds when he said Iraq was a religious decision. The whole affair however was because some muslim, Osama bin Laden, took offensive to americans staying too long on his Islamic holy soil following Gulf War I. Kennedy gave us Vietnam (50,000+ dead), FDR wanted to intervene in Europe, so this foreign war thing isn't a Christian ideal. Why do you have so much fear of Christians when they have produced almost every single livable nation on the earth today? look around- China, N. Korea, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, and the list goes on. Christianity gives us at worst Pat Robertson who has 0 chance of being president and isn't nearly as offensive as some of the other extremes. Muslims give us the new black panthers, 9/11, and the most violent religion around. Leftists give us PC, riots, loss of freedom, and economic ruin. Know your enemies, then you can fight worthy battles. To eliminate myth? that's like saying you can eliminate human nature, and I have a real problem with humanism and it's myths and perversions. Liberty and equality in the eyes of the law, those guys were really on to something.
Since the Enlightenment it has been secular government not Christians that produced livable nations. The myth of religion being eliminated from directly controlling people's lives. Secularism provides freedom from and freedom of religion. Livability despite (Christian) religions, not because of them.
stu, but they have happened in Christian majority nations, in other words, the Christians gave us secular governments. True enough, it was to protect themselves from each other mostly but they were part authors of the bill of rights, then they died defending the bill of rights. I agree that people like Tom Paine were critical yet they could not have done it alone. If look at the past 100 years to today, to whom have free-speaking securalists suffered the most? have there been any torturings or deaths recently at the hands of Christians? any threats like the ones made by the govenment of Iran against a free thinking Dutch cartoonist? Stalin's purges of intellectuals, the cultural revolution, US college campus politics, and the fine people in the video below. You don't understand how good we have it, here in a nation where people argue about the word God in the pledge of allegiance. You want to argue things like evolution when it is a stated goal of Islam to conquer you. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5KS8bEKpbX0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I wouldn't argue secularism didn't happen within a Christian context Mav, but it's a case of... so? Lots of things happen within lots of different contexts. It's stretching past breaking point to say Christians or even a Christian context gave us secular government. Forced the need for secular government, maybe, but gave it... no way. There was no formal belief in Christianity within the population by any conventional sense or understanding at the time of the Bill of Rights. The established Christian Church, the Church of England, had been expelled from the US. Less than ten percent of the population were even congregational. Bill of Rights authors showed they were opposed to Christian clergy specifically, for the bigotry and persecution amongst the early established Christian churches and between differing Christian beliefs and religions. What was Christianity and Christians US style, turned to Jefferson requesting the protection of the Capital state to defend them against their own religious clan wars. They were handed secularism. Saying Christians gave us secularism is like saying thieves gave us law. Are you suggesting because 'we have it good' we should not argue against the things which are ignorant, prejudiced and bigoted - the standpoint of some Christians against evolution and science in general? Coincidentally the same standpoint as Islam. How is it going to be anything like 'having it good' to be obliged not to argue against anyone or anything that takes such an appalling stance against knowledge itself. If theocratic Islam wants to conquer, is that what you think Christianity should be able to do too, but surreptitiously, under the secular radar?
Free Thinker, I am just curious as to why you started this thread and what type of conversation you were trying involve members in. Your initial post sounded like you were frustrated with the direction of the established ritual based denominations; then evolved into "Russell" and apparently being an atheist, and the railing against the Afgan war. And then there is the topic of the Thread itself?
Welcome to P&R. It has gone dark on this thread because stu posted. Soon jem will respond. Hatfields and McCoys, those two. The rest of us just run away.