I never said I can't trade on a blank chart. This is where I am not understanding your point. You're separating or putting a "one vs the other argument" when that is not what I am doing. I'd rather you make the statement that you don't believe indicators can help you see patterns. That's something I can factually come back at. I am not trying to be picky but I am writing paragraphs explaining my point and situation and the counter points I get back are: From Kcalhoun is an argument based from authority saying he worked somewhere and also an argument saying "squiggly lines" mean nothing. That is not very helpful. From you I am getting back "what if I lose my indicators" argument. Like what my computer crashes and I didn't back up my files? That doesn't seem like a very well intention or good argument either.. Again it isn't one vs the other. I am not sure why people always think an a "Democrat vs Republican" stance for example. I am saying indicators can add value to a blank chart that allow people to see things that they otherwise wouldn't be able to process. Does this mean for everyone? of course not. But you're the one saying "for everyone" and making a definitive statement and that's what I am not understanding. EDIT: I see Ken just posted a statement clarifying his position and that he isn't making a blanket statement, so I don't particularly have any issue with that now. I'd still like to understand why you are making the blanket statement though.
My only point is it seems like you're making definitive statements and that can really derail and hurt new traders or people learning. Every successful trader I know uses indicators and they range vastly from simple to advanced. Does this mean that indicators are the way to go and that PA / Candles / blank charts are not? Of course it doesn't. My only point is it's more than enough evidence to counter your statement of how a blank chart is the only way to be successful, which is what your statement seem to imply. Everyone is processing the same general data, just some people process it better in other forms or some people are able to parse the data out more efficiently and effectively in indicator form when otherwise they would miss things with just a blank chart.
Well, nobody's pontificating here. We're just freely sharing our own thoughts. I'm not saying you shouldn't use "indicators". Nor am I making a blanket generalization that indicators are bad. But, being a former user of indicator myself, I know that relying on indicator is not a good practice. Many traders worth their salt have also expressed the same sentiment. But, like I said, these are all just my own 2-cents.
For me, even VIX and TRIN are worthless. They're no better than any other indicators. Only reason the VIX is up is because the prices are volatile. Hence, it too is a laggard. Everything will eventually be shown on the price.
Whether or not anyone uses indicators is not answered by opinions on an anonymous chat thread but by your own cognition and understanding of price discovery. We all see things differently and within different contexts. As a hit and run day trader, I use tick charts because I like they way they adapt to the current pace of price development. I don't have time for intra-bar analysis so I need to be able to make quick decisions on whether I have a valid tradable signal. So for me, using moving averages and a stochastic derivative gives me an at-glance view of price geography and momentum dynamics across my three time frames. That's what works for me, you through experience and time spent looking at price development will need to find what works best for you. As far as order of time frame analysis, the longer the time frame, the more powerful the information. You have to define the tf universe in which you trade. You can't be analyzing every time frame. If you are making swing trades lasting days to months, then use the higher time frames. As a day trader, I don't care what the monthly or weekly look like. Most of my trades are on the ES, using 1500, 4500 and 13,500 tick charts so those are my trading universe. As you spend time learning how to interpret price, try different things. Your cognition should evolve over time and you may put things on and take things off. The more time and effort you spend, the more you will be able to develop a methodology or methodologies to formulate your signals and rules,
Always funny when people try to win arguments. Profitability is a trader <-> market relationship. No need to convince an online anonymous, That one way is better than the other. And you better not reveal it. There is no best way, Anyway ... Fortunately we don’t share the same models, Same beliefs, values, problems or choices. Otherwise there would be no market. What matters is market feedbacks and learning. You won’t increase your bottom line browsing ET.
It may have started out that way, but we all clarified we we're just giving our experiences and my only objection was if people we're going to make absolute statements, than I was curious what examples or facts they had to prove it. Also, it can feel like digging through the garbage sometimes on online forums, but I've actually made some relationships that ended up being beneficial which ultimately has increased by bottom line. Just fyi.