the truth is recently the nyse is looking more and more like the nasdaq and the nasdaq is rigged beyond most ,ability to comprehend. Anyone get hurt in pvn. I didnt in the stock but a good friend and myself lost money buying puts too early but the establishment can artificially inflate it. they then attract suckers that way that think oh its not in the 50's any more so 30 must be a discount right? wrong look and explain its move today after this i am buying some at 8.50 but somehow it is a contest to sell at the lows. and no i never listen to analysts pump stocks but amazing Thomas Weisel Partners upgrades to STRONG BUY from Buy based on a strong balance sheet, acceleration of EBITDA, and attractive valuation. Firm's DCF (discounted cash flow) based price target indicates fair value of $30... TPC shares have fallen 70% in 2002.
Hitman- no nothing has changed...I've talked to many Echo traders and they are all very happy...the software is a bit weak , but like I said it looks like they're taking care of that bullets are 3cents a share i think...but I don't plan on using them too much...i seem to have found my nitch in qqq's , so bullets not needed. like i said , going back to NYC wasn't very appealing to me...however my sister recently moved to the upeer east side...and i still have a few friends downtown however, moving would mean more expense for me, so I don't know what I'd be able to put up at Worldco....and also I hate to bring it up, but that men's room scares the hell out of me...I could never take a dump in there....and it's very important to clean the pipes in the morning...just like MArty Schwartz said in Pitbull. i like being upstate....throwing the snowboard on the jeep and being at a great MTN in an hour...Manhattan is great for parties and women...well..you've given me something to consider..I just have to work out the math.
Bob is _NOT_ going to sit next to anyone. His _TRADES_ are in the seven or eight figures. Believe me he doesn't need money, he does this cause he lives, breaths, eats, and shits the markets [and Baccarat. ] I have never seen anyone as dedicated - although you look like you are on your way, but pardon my skepticism - it's like Brian Erlacher of the Chicago Bears - he wins one rookie of the year and everyone is comparing him to Dick Butkus - ah, No. I believe you 100%. I believe you 99%. I have yet to see someone as profitable as Bob _for_so_long_. I have seen traders much more profitable, but they always burnt out [Harry The Hat at the Merc comes to mind - I think he made $250,000,000/year, but where is he now?] Well, I like you, suspect that once you learn the "mechanics" you are pretty much on your own anyway. Having someone of Bob's caliber next to me would be nice I don't know what good it would do me, as I would not have so much stock in a trade that I would have to start worrying about owning 5% of the company! LOL I believe this 100% As trader88 says above: "This is all business" and no trader at ET can fail to ignore the passion of Hitman and Don. Regards, nitro
I have found 2 big advantages to Bright over Echo, first, because of exchange affiliation, if you decide the firm, or prop/professional trading is not a good fit, with Bright you will be refunded your money right away, vs. 1 year for Echo. Second, Echo charges ecn fees and Bright doesn't. Please correct me if I am wrong. One thing I am not sure of, is with Bright, is the desk fee rebated at 400k shares, or only $100 rebated, with $100 at each additional 100k level? Also, I think the $600 the guy was referring to included first alert, which I don't see is rebated.
Just to show people that we don't dodge bullets: Uptick: It is very difficult for me to beat the rate Echo gave you if you are going to put up MUCH less capital. At 10K capital contribution, 1 cent per share, 100% pay out, no ticket charges, 3 cent a bullet, I am not sure how much the desk fee is, but that is a killer deal (unless the desk fee is . . . $600 a month) The best I can do is give you all of above (well being prep we can only give say, 99.9% payout), without the desk fees, AND of course, true use of firm capital in that we back you up if you lose your money, and you will be trading much bigger size than your capital x margin rate. (Once of course, you survive your 100 share newbie stage that everyone should go through) We assign DOT limits as opposed to capital limits, if you have a DOT limit of 500, you can trade 500 MM, or 500 MMM. Keep in mind odds are you will lose 5K of your 10K to start, and you will have 5K left, and that is good for 50K at 10x margin, that is good for 500 shares 2 positions on a $50 stock. Throw in the desk fees you will be under pressure (regardless of what Don say, you should not be averaging 10K shares each way on a daily basis in your first month or two). At Worldco, if you show progress, you are allowed to trade far bigger sizes than your capital x margin rate. That said, if you are going to put up MUCH less capital, I am not sure if I can still do the same thing. If moving to NY is a problem, don't force it, you absolutely must be comfortable, as the first a few months will be a living nightmare. By the way, I have to call Echo and make sure that they are actually offering all that for a 10K capital contribution. Please don't misunderstand, I fully believe in your words, but if they are offering that to everyone, that is a legit alternative to Worldco's no start-up capital rule, and I have to talk to Walter about the existence of such a competitor. Do they actually offer you any incentive at all to put up 10K versus say, 25K? When people come to our firm with 25K, we can give them anything they want, hell, we take no risk. When it is 10K, it gets washy, let me know.
Hitman- From what I know , the only disadvantage in putting up only 10k, is that you don't get the much higher leverage...I think its 5x intra day for 10k Uptik
Ok, so if you are new, it is nearly inevitable that you will lose 5 out of the 10K (I mean, I lost 5K when I started in late 2000's, a much better market environment, and not even Don Bright can label my learning curve, at 3 and 1/2 months to go positive, worse than average). Sure, if you are gifted may be you can avoid that, but most people I know lost more than I did before turning it around. 5 * 5 = 25K, or 300 shares, 2 positions for a $40 stock. I don't think that's going to cut it if you are trying to make back the 5K you lost. You be the judge. I personally think you need more than 10K, if my above calculation is true, to make it in Echo, or anywhere on this planet for that matter, except Worldco. The trader on my squad who just turned positive was facing a 5K deficit (all firm capital), and he had a 500 shares 4 positions limit, later in his winning streak, raised to 700 shares 6 positions. When futures ripped hard he would take 1500-2000 shares. He had a 12 out of 13 games winning streak, and I don't think you can be much more efficient than that, to go back in the black. He takes no less than 1000 shares at once during first and last hour. Even if you don't lose a single dime of your 10K, you do not have that kind of trading power. This is precisely why I said Echo & Bright are glorified brokerage services (once you lose your money you are gone), while Worldco is a true opportunity. Does Bright offer 10x leverage too? If that is the case I just found a great argument against Don and his boys. What is the monthly fee again? Once you are pinned down to 2 positions 300 shares, you will hardly be able to make back the desk fees, and it will take a really long time before you can turn it around. That said, if you trade Nasdaq, then by all means go with Echo, if you do listed, please look over my math (and no it is not Don Bright math), and let me know (of course, e-mail me with that additional information I requested). No wonder our owner didn't rush out to compete with Echo for those with 10K contributions. I personally don't think you can make it with 10K. Hell, right now, if I have 10K, that just 50K, 500 shares, 2 positions, I don't think I can make MCD money in this market with that kind of buying power. Why slow your growth as a trader because you don't have a tons of money? I had 3000 shares, 16 positions, when I had just 15K in my capital account, you do the math. As a friend, even if you put up less capital and get a worse deal than Echo (believe me it won't be anywhere even close to 1.5 cent a share if you put up a few grand), it should still be a much better choice. Now let me do some math against Bright, 25K at 10x leverage it becomes a closer call. The guy loses 5K. He has 20K left. 200K buying power. 2000 shares of a $50 stock. It is still much lower than what I worked with when I just turned net positive overall, but it is at least doable. Still, I have a guy at my firm who made 1.5 million last year, and he has 25K in his capital account (I can show you his account statement if you come to my office now that I am a team leader, without his name of course), needless to say, he trades bigger size than 2000 shares at a time Anyway, I just threw some ideas for all Bright/Echo supporters to chew through. Damn, I am happy I started with Worldco. (Very cheesy Don Bright like comment)
So if you have to put up 10k to get 5x leverage at Echo, how much do you have to put up to get 10x leverage. And does the firm hold your initial deposit for 1 year before you can withdraw it?
Vinny- I'm not sure really....you should e-mail them directly. uptik Hitman- If I were new I can understand what you're saying. However, I started daytrading full-time right around the same time you did. And have only had 2 down months. My size has been relatively small...and although I haven't worked out the precise math...my profits would have been much greater if I had been at a pro firm rather than with the retail firm I was with. The first few months I grossly overtraded...last Feb(2001) I made a costly mistake not cutting my loss in a trade....I've learned from these mistakes...I am much more disciplined now... If I had a friend who had 10k and never traded before , but wanted to, I would probably tell him to e-mail you...but I'm in a bit of a different situation... I'm curious why you wouldn't go to Echo or another pro firm now....it seems to be that your biggest point about World co is the safety of using their money...you've been around for a while, and you're a team leader....why not go to a place where you can get the same fee rates and not have to give away 5% of your profits? a place that has a cleaner environment, better equiptment, etc?