Capital Traders Group NEW Fees -_-

Discussion in 'Prop Firms' started by OGTrader, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. OGTrader


    Hey ET,

    So I have a friend from a trading chat room that I am a regular at forward me the e-mail for the new CTG pricing plan.

    The just of the plan is 99 bucks a month for Sterling Pro, Lightspeed, or Laser... or 49 bucks for Sterling Lite and free Fusion DMA (which is junk in my opinion)

    THAN you get hit for 99 bucks a month for data access fess (which is fine...) AND 69 bucks for "risk-admin fee."

    Let say a few things that sound fishy here.

    1.) I have a feeling that CTG was catching wind of competition and decided to "cut costs" to traders by lowering the software costs.... but actually this cost is the same, if not more, because these new fees are being added.

    2.) What in the heck is a "risk admin fee?!" I have never EVER heard of a prop charge for anything like this... I can understand that props want to assess the risk that their traders incur BUT this fee shouldn't exist in my opinion.

    3.) Funny how I personally received an offer from TM Global and both CTG and TM Global have a VERY similar layout (payment/costs, contract agreement, etc). Now, this isn't wrong per-say.... but it's funny how the same group thinks they can spin-off into 2 groups and try to apply the same sham.

    SO my question is this ET. What exactly are you paying for with these groups? Does it cost money to actually license these platforms for CTG and TM Global... yes, it probably does. But, lest we forget, when you sign to CTG, you're signing WTS's paperwork.... Which is funny because they have traders sign on with LITTLE TO NO MONTHLY COST (besides market access, etc). CTG and TM offer little to nothing in the line of events, guidance, training, etc... so I know their traders don't pay for that.

    Again, profit is profit for these groups and yes, people need to make a living but, forgive me if I don't feed into this piggy bank. I have no attachment to this group but, I would much rather look at props like T3, SMB (ehhh, maybe), even Star Alliance.

    What are your thoughts here ET?
  2. Let me give you my perspective, take it with a grain of salt though because it sounds like you may be a bit confused about prop firms.

    1) data generally runs 250-400 at most firms. Looks like if I got it right sterling is 49+69+99 = $220? That's about the average cost. If you buy cheap, you buy twice. You can get shitty software like web platforms for $50-$100/month but these platforms are not as stable.

    2) the risk-admin fee is standard with many firms nowadays, especially the firms with good customer service. The different between places like WTS, CTG, JC, Bright and places like T3, SMB, Star Alliance is that they support many more professionals. Their deposits are very low and their commission fees are very fair. You will not be able to get 25 cents per 1k shares. the difference in volume that these two groups of firms do is pretty big.

    If you read through the boards, the members have been a lot happier with CTG's training than with T3/SMB. I'm sure you'll get other comments, but generally speaking, the firms that have professionals don't market education as much as t3/smb who rely on new traders with little to no experience who don't understand how the business works.

    3) t3, smb, etc try to hook n00bs and then charge them $8-$10 per 1k shares. Someone on here was charged $12 per 1k shares with T3. The rates seem unreasonable.

    All the big CBOE firms generally have international groups. JC has Nevis, WTS has their canada group, CTG has TM, Broad St. has IB worldwide. This is the proper legal structure for the large firms that operate in multiple countries. the US client base must be separated from the overseas broker which can accept worldwide traders. CBOE only accepts US registered and licensed traders. If they want international clients, the company has to be outside of the USA but that company can accept traders worldwide.

    Now with CTG, JC, and other WTS subs, you have blackbox hosting/coding in house and far more development in terms of infrastructure and support for advanced strategy protocols.

    The ultimate teacher is always going to be the markets. You should join the firm you feel the most comfortable. You won't get anything at T3 that other firms don't offer.
  3. OGTrader


    Thanks Evo, I'll give some of my insight of each point.

    1 & 2.) I understand their may be certain fees with platforms and I know how you said some web based platforms can be 50-100 bucks a month but, traders don't join props to use web platforms... I have never ever seen a prop offer a web platform as the main platform of trade (could be wrong here). To offer that argument is kind of invalid because if I wanted to stay retail... I would than use a web platform or LS etc, etc. But traders join props to get access to the leading tech. Again, does this cost money? Yes, it does, you cant get around that but, don't call it a "risk-admin fee".... lay it on the table and say "this is what the cost of the software is, hands down." Speaking from personal experience and again, I may be wrong, I have never seen anyone charged any kind of "risk fee" and if they do, it isn't 70 bucks a month.

    3.) Ok, lets talk rates. CTG charges traders off the bat .005 (from people I know on the inside). This isn't horrible but, it isn't competitive. I'd rather go to WTS, and hagle down to .003-2 which I have done in the past to see how low they can go. Granted each firms may be a fit for different experienced traders (SMB and their n00bs) but, I happen to know Mike Bellafiore and Marc Sperling (they work on the same floor and SMB is actually a class-b member to T3 *spoiler alert*) and they are more than flexible with their rates. To someone that accepts 12$ for 1k.... they must have not known the business and I'm sorry to see that happen to a trader.

    I can also vouch for 90% of all firms that allow blackbox/greybox trading. This isn't a new thing as something like 60% of all trading is all automated now! I can blackbox/greybox from my home!

    I agree with 100% saying that traders should join the firm they feel the most comfortable with BUT, I am also a firm believer that traders shouldn't be roped into fees that have no place on a contract.
  4. OGTrader


    I'm surprised you took out "I was with CTG in the past but now im with WTS." I hope it's too nobodys surprise that when you sign to CTG, you sign WTS's paper work... your deposit is with WTS, you clear and trade, wanna guess? Through WTS.

    I fail to see the reason to sign to a company like CTG while instead you can sign to WTS, get lower rates, and not face the middleman BS that is CTG. CTG's education just simply isn't there. They have an education page on their site and I've personally seen it and it consists of 4-5 videos. Yay. Do not tell me that T3 and SMB's training and education is not more concise.

    As far as international branches go, yes, this is true. Big groups offer international sub-groups to gain international exposure but what is unique to CTG's position is that they're spinning off international to the same cost basis. This isn't JC trading which is it's own entity that you sign too (not a sub-group like WTS/CTG), CTG/TM Global is a sub-group, making another group to pool together more traders to have them face the same costs. If CTG was it's own group, this would make sense to me.... but you don't have a sub-group start another international sub-group. It just wouldn't make sense. Why would I want 2 middle men groups in-between the trader and WTS (the group they are ultimately signing too)....
  5. A lot of firms offer web platforms. Speedtrader does a few billion in volume a month and their platform is web-based. They charge $50 for the platform but $40 for each level-2 platform. A lot of firms will push level 1 data on n00bs because it's cheaper and they can pitch "our software fees are lower".

    In the trading business, a risk-admin fee is standard for firms that have a lot of remote traders and have their own customer service staff, not just traders or sales people answering all calls. $69 is a joke. If that little fee really is that much of an issue for you, you may want to try another business. Wait till you see the FINRA/SEC fees and the fees a lot of the ECNs and routing venues charge.

    You can't compare groups like SMB/T3 and WTS/CTG in terms of infrastructure, rates, and volume. You're also completely wrong about the algo side. I personally know the guys at T3 and the people at CTG. CTG runs their own servers and hosts the blackboxes themselves. I'm sure don or rmrose can confirm but the level of knowledge required to do the stuff Bright/JC/WTS/CTG does like developing their own trading platforms is not something you're going to find at T3. the WTS groups also have a FINRA B/D for SIPC insured accounts and a larger hedge fund working with private clients.

    Don't let something like $69 hinder your decision making. There are A LOT more important aspects to a joining a prop group than a $69 admin fee. It's very rare to find a group with the customer service of Capital Traders Group. Nobody on here who had dealt with the group has ever said anything except "they have the best customer service in the business."

    JC is not it's own broker-dealer. It's a sub-group of WTS as well. WTS is the largest prop firm in the country with Bright probably coming in second.

    For some people it's going to be worth it, for others, it won't. Weigh all aspects when choosing a group, it's silly to judge by one fee. In the grand scheme of things, it's negligible.
  6. OGTrader


    I believe Speedtrader uses a derivative of the DAS platform. They probably offer a web platform as well but Speedtrader is not a B/ they aren't my concern.

    I honestly don't know much about algo trading but I do know for a fact that T3 and SMB both offer traders the ability to use it. To what extent... I'm not sure. This does not concern or hinder my argument.

    I am a prop trader, I know the fees associated with trading. I'm happy to say I trade with a group that lays it all in black and white and doesn't change fees anytime they please. 69 bucks can be the difference between a red and green month. It may not mean a lot in the long run but, I, as a trader, refuse to pay into something I don't believe is worthy of paying into.

    I have never said anything about CTG's service. From what I know and have heard, it's great BUT, I am not paying to have someone answer the phone when I call. Is this a plus? Yes 100% but, it shouldn't be the only factor in a traders decision.

  7. Okay, so you don't like their risk-admin fee. Don't trade there, leave it alone. and keep trading at your black and white fee firm.

    some will pay, some won't.
  8. wherever you are getting your information it's very wrong. Of course I traded with them. That's why I can give you an honest opinion.

    Of course Speedtrader is a broker-dealer. they are one of the biggest broker-dealers there are.

    of $69 is the difference between a red month and green month for you, I suggest you call up some new firms and look for new strategies. Bright offers a great course for $1k on pairs trading.

    As far as education, nobody has trading. CTG's education is not what they have on the site. Those are free classes for the public. They hold full-day classes 2 weeks out of the month. They also have been one of the best providers of supplement material for the series 56, a lot of CBOE firms are using their stuff. Read through the past threads and you'll find experience of people with their education.

    "They offer it but to what extent" - come on, don't be this naive. automation and scalability is one of the reasons to join a firm. Sp
  9. LEAPup


    So which platform are you guys recommending? Sterling trader pro, or lightspeed?