cannot believe that buffet sold a complex option ...

Discussion in 'Wall St. News' started by mind, Nov 24, 2008.

  1. mind

    mind

    touche. in fact i know nothing about him.
     
    #31     Nov 25, 2008
  2. Of course it's OVER the counter. My bad.
     
    #32     Nov 25, 2008
  3. mind

    mind

    no. there is no free lunch. this is a zero sum game.
    actually adjusted for all brokerage involved in rebalancing
    the hedges, it is a negative sum game. one guy looses.
    it just might depend on the intensity of the analysis,
    whether this becomes obvious or not. all of course IMHO.
     
    #33     Nov 25, 2008
  4. mind

    mind

    "Buyers of the derivatives would be entitled to billions of
    dollars from Omaha, Nebraska-based Berkshire if four
    stock indexes drop below agreed-upon levels on dates
    beginning in 2019."

    this is a complex option on a portfolio of indices. corrs
    start to play a role in this. this is not a too-complex
    option, but it ain't too simple either. and do not forget
    that someone has to adjust for the length of the option.
    so there must be dynamic hedging going on, which has
    a price.
     
    #34     Nov 25, 2008
  5. mind

    mind

    BTW in these days marked to market becomes an issue
    even for very long term investments. do not forget that,
    be the option as much european as she wants, there is
    a current market price of such option. and if this price
    shows a loss, then buffet shows a loss. he is basically
    short VIX 20 at currently VIX at 60-80.

    there is no way to talk regulators out of this. many,
    many managers failed due to MTM, claiming that at
    expiration everything would be fine. which, BTW, is a
    nice little illusion. my personal opinion is that this is the
    only way to do such things: enforce MTM everywhere.
    all this hold to maturity BS is ... well ... BS. investors
    MUST be forced to only hold tiny portions of such investments.
     
    #35     Nov 25, 2008
  6. Obviously he cant get called on it and its a good bet for him (in the end). But the people on the other side didnt buy just to hold it to expiration and as mentioned theres that little thing called margin.
    Noone who buys the option now is actually going to hold onto it are they.... Jsut because it cant be cashed in early doesnt mean it cant be sold...... Whoever bought them will be able to sell them off, cover them, add them to part of another position whatever and make a fortune now.
     
    #36     Nov 25, 2008
  7. mind

    mind

    i am very suspicious to this kind of trade. usually there
    is an effect that fools the human eye. in this case for
    example it looks like an obvious trade for buffet. but if
    you take the current situation into account, how MTM
    is bringing him into trouble, things start to look different.
    what i am trying to say is that these products do not
    only have a situation on expiration date. the cost of
    holding capital against the daily VaR need to be take
    into account as well - which they often aren't.

    either you have a complete fool on the other side who is
    willing to overpay an option, or it is you who is the fool.
    and if you don't know the answer for sure: it's certainly
    you. there is no free lunch. i for myself would never
    ever do such trade.

    my thinking is like that: in this size, you don't have
    fools at counterparties (admittedly a conservative
    assumption). and whatever price for the option comes
    up, it is derived out of current market prices. directly.
    it is the outcome of all products currently traded. but
    it is seemingly so in your favor. and this is what i am
    suspicious about. when the VIX makes a spike we
    know that later months are reluctant to follow. when
    the short end in rates fluctuates widely, we know that
    the long end doesn't. whereever we have something
    traded with high liquidity with some time perspective
    build in, we know that this later point takes into account
    all the in-between-action very efficiently. and my point
    is that it is the same with this kind of option: what is
    so seemingly in your favor is an illusion. or at least
    partly. it is just a trade like everything else BUT it has
    certain disadvantages, like MTM risks, counterparty
    risks and so forth ...

    finally. over the span of a decade our imagination of
    what can truly happen is at risk of failing dramatically.
    the world CAN differ significantly from now. just look
    at the last eleven years. we had the LTCM, net bubble,
    911 and now the assumed great recession. don't add
    illiquidity of your instruments on top of that. and in
    such products illiquidity constantly surrounds you.
    some swap here and there, some fx hedge (maybe
    the four indices where not US only) and so forth. all
    of a sudden you have counterparty risk with various
    financial institution. they won't fail all at the same
    time your model makes you believe ... well ... this kind
    of thinking is at the very heart of the current crisis.
     
    #37     Nov 25, 2008
  8. mind

    mind

    but my true point is: WB ran a crusade against this kind
    of product. admittedly it is a relatively simple one, but
    nevertheless it IS a complex derivative and i guess he
    already regrets big time not resisting the temptation ...
     
    #38     Nov 25, 2008
  9. mind

    mind

    good that finally someone with such clear perspective
    enters the discussion.
     
    #39     Nov 25, 2008
  10. mind

    mind

    BTW i find it even tougher that he SOLD it ...
     
    #40     Nov 25, 2008