Can trading be learned or is it "fixed"

Discussion in 'Trading' started by andrasnm, Jul 16, 2001.

  1. My thread wants to provoke a breakdown of a make-up of a
    trader. Aside of money and some education and aptitude.
    I would say (and the percentages are subjective)
    A trader will be a success of - 25% quick math ability and
    25% general market and mob
    psychology understanding
    50% own phsychological makup
    I left out candlesticks and software knowhow for abvious reasons. ;)
    So my point is the first one you can improve and learn tricks (I learned "thinking" in 1/8 quickly after scalping
    NYSE stuff when we used eights ;)
    The last issue is the problem.<b>If you are 'weak' in this
    area I thing you are doomed</b>. No amount of stuff can fix you. And I mean no amount of shrinks and books etc, when
    did you see a shring "fix" anyone ????? It's a con !!!!
    I heard about NLP and Robbins. I'm kind of a student of
    Antony Robbins and NLP but the problem lies deeper that that. I know people who could use self hypnosys and NLP
    but I deeply think it's the matter that ruins most of the
    traders, the brightest and the best went bust. This is the
    key. Turtles only worked in trends with serious hedge fund
    money. Eiter you have a phychlogical make-up of a winning
    trader or you don't. You can teach anyone trading <b> provided thay have a psych makup of a solid trader.</b>
    You know it in the first six months.(or before with a test)
    Agree, disagree ? The percentages are wrong? Do you have it
    PS I think it't can even be 20,20,60 :D
  2. You make an interesting point. It would be fascinating to have someone trained in psychology do a study on this subject. In my opinion, the factors you mentioned are not the real issues. I believe that there are 4 pillars of success that can be applied to any form of achievement.

    1.) Proper mental attitude. A positive view of life. Willingness to take responsibility for ones actions.

    2.) Burning desire to succeed. Ill refer you to Napolian Hills various works. His most popular being "Think and Grow Rich"

    3.) Willingness to do whatever it takes. The willingness to persist in the face of failure.

    4.) Knowledge. This is something that to a large degree comes with experience.

    In my opinion, if someone posesses the qualities listed above, he/she will eventually succeed regardless of psychological makeup. Perhaps they will use the tools of NLP or some form of counseling to help work through various challenges. Also, they may need to learn to downplay certain natural tendencies within their psychological makeup in order to accpomplish their goals. For instance, a phylagmatic leaning person might need to learn to become more decisive. Someone more detail oriented might need to overcome the desire to be "right".

    I believe people fail at trading for the same reason that people fail at everything else in life. They lack one of the 4 things i just listed. In my previous work i was employed by a man that had invested his life savings to open an auto repair franchise. When he was at the corporate office he happened to stumble into one of the executive offices and strike up a conversation with one of the secretaries. He noticed a large row of filing cabinets in the offices and asked what they were for. The secretary told him that is where they keep the files of franchises that went out of business. People fail for all kinds of reasons. It isnt just trading, its every business. Think about it. How many people had your old job before you? Alot right? Was it because of their misfortunate genetic makeup? Maybe, but probably not right?

    just my thoughts.. good trading..

  3. Well,
    I spent considerable time on the floor (CBOT) and I KNOW that quick mental agility is a must. Must think calculate in you head quick and remenber figures from say 7am etc. This is a must for a floor trader to trade options (but even stocks and futures). Training can be done for this.

    As for psychology - there were books (many) written in the
    area of the makup and personality of a trader. At age six
    we have a personality - only way out is NO WAY. You better
    start liking yourself. You won't change your core personality !!! Fact !!
    That's why either you change your game plan drastically
    or you'll perish/or quit if you don't have the proven makeup.
    I will go further - there is nothing wrong with 6-18 month
    try. I have a buddy who has been trading in NYC for 8 years
    now ? He still did not make it :eek: I am sure his family
    is wealthy but talk about persitance (or stupidity ???)
    Don't get me wrong I am not a quitter but at what point
    does one get the message ??????
  4. I think that although only 5% are successful (and I debate that figure, cause I believe it to be much higher when you exclude those who dont really give it the effort necessary) almost 30% of the population has the mental capability to trade successfully if he wants to. Most starting traders actually fail b/c they are undercapitalized, untrained, and using inferior trading methods and software. I think that if every trader were to start in a quality direct access platform, with 50k in capital, a lot more would succeed. Trading is just a big excercise in mental conditioning. You see a pattern, and you react in a way that produces the reward you want. I can trade almost as profitably after a dozen shots of vodka. It is like second nature to me now. But I think most people expect instant gratification, and giveup after a few months of losses. It took me almost 5 months on my second account just to get flat, and that was 18 months after I have started my first account which I blew. Most people don't have the time (family) to give to trading.
    As for your percentages, quick mental skill isn't that important. BAsically, you MUST be intelligent. You won't succeed if you aren't. You MUST be able to remember most or all of the key price points during the course of the day, cause you often don't have the time to look them up. Besides that, math power isn't that important. I think the ability to understand herd psychology, and how to react to it is the most important thing. I think the psychological aspect is the part that dooms most traders, and makes it so that most don't succeed. Most peopls have the mental ability after practice to trade. Most don't have the ability to stick to stops, and be disciplined. This is also the hardest part to teach someone.
    I'm not sure if this adds to this thread, but it's my 2c's.
  5. No, you don't! Read some Wizard books. Like half of them lost badly for a long time. Look at them now. It's as much about persistence as anything in my opinion.
  6. And by the way people CAN change their personality. How many times have you heard "ABC was a shy, timid boy, blah blah blah". Well today ABC is anything but shy.
  7. The World give a human being what they truely want.

    Problem most of the people in this world are holding so much baggage about their past that they never try to succeed. I like to believe anyone can be successful if they truely put their heart and soul into it. All humans are created equal.

  8. Cesko


    If you are weak you are not doomed. Forget NLP, psychology in general. It's a con as you said. Do a simple (but really,really hard) exercise of mind concentration (one of the most fundamental exercise of Yoga system). Doesn't matter what you concentrate on. If you can keep on practising for at least 2 years you will see what's going to do it to your mind. I guarantee you, after those couple of years you will never stop. I know it won't fly with 99.9% of people because the fix is not quick enough.The pill with the proper marketing would sell much better.
  9. Cesko


    I do not really think there is anything equal. You get screwed by your genes, eventually by your own parents, too.
  10. Ok, serious studies suggest that one core personality is
    "fixed" - I have not yet formed my own oppinion as I am
    not quite sure. Billion dollar business is "self-help" and
    Meditation, NLP etc. So there is a market! There are some
    Could it be that the market wizzards etc were all a "trader
    personality" yet thy screwed up initially ? Even if you
    are a perfect trader - for a model - you can start badly
    and catch bad breaks....
    I like to believe that one can change a self and improve,
    I don't wish to take away the hope that we can become
    all that we strive for. Yet I can't help to think of
    the addage when "Henk the agry dwarf" wanted to become
    a NBA star. We all have some limitations and trading is
    far beyond of a scope of just any old job, more like
    athletics or mental turnaments. How many can become a
    chess champion, you got to have something to obtain that
    (if you don't like my athlets metaphor)
    #10     Jul 16, 2001