California… roadmap to Socialism in the USSA

Discussion in 'Economics' started by gnome, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. 1.25% where I was, + the $700/year on the bond measure they added. For me it was just the last straw. I had a beautiful place to live, but I just felt like the value wasn't there. A beautiful place is not good enough in isolation -- it depends a lot on how educated the public is, how practical the government is, and whether or not you feel there is value in the overall picture.

    It's more than just that, though. The school systems are garbage, the illegal immigrants choke up the ER, the population just isn't smart, etc.
     
    #11     Feb 22, 2009
  2. One more thing -- it's deceptive that the actual rate is low, because almost all CA housing is more expensive than other states. A house that you can get for $300,000 in Michigan is easily $800,000 in CA.
     
    #12     Feb 22, 2009
  3. achilles28

    achilles28

    Agree 100%.

    Free-trade doesn't work between rich and poor countries.

    Trade barriers must exist to protect wages and living standards.

    Otherwise, jobs and capital go overseas (or out-of-state) and social programs collapse under revenue shortfall. California provides a good, future road-map. France, UK and US are next.

    A broad production base has a multiplier benefit on domestic employment, as each dollar spent puts a local firm to work. Even a pair of shoes creates jobs at a local wholesaler, that creates jobs at a local manufacturer, that creates jobs at a local tanning house, that creates jobs at a local textile shop, that creates jobs at a chemical dies and pigment factory, that all create jobs within those suppliers feeder networks, that all create jobs at local banks!!!

    That, in essence, is what money velocity is

    Instead, that money velocity (read: Jobs) was exported to China for shareholder profits. China gets all the jobs and wealth creation benefits from a robust, production-based economy. While we get some fleeting thrills and a wicked hangover.

    Our new value chain:

    Retailer > Wholesaler/Importer > China. Money circulation then stops and foreigners gets everything.

    For the past 15 years, globalism seemingly worked while Americans spent 120% of their incomes via debt accumulation - credit card and home refinance. The economic void carved from our expatriated manufacturing base was smoothed over by the explosion in consumption, financed by debt.

    Now, the West is about to fall on very hard times.

    The veil has slowly lifted on our "house-of-cards" economy, and every promising new industry, in this eagerly-hyped "new economy" (remember that??) has been exposed as little more than undetectable slight of hand. An electrified moment where a master thief's prowess captures our imaginations, and our wallets while we looked the other way!!

    Asset bubbles underwritten by worthless banks, securitization of worthless paper, "endless" real estate profits and all sorts of frenzied brokers fueling a bubble destined to collapse.

    The American economy was centered around ponzi schemes - real estate speculation, stock market speculation and banking that provided the liquidity for both.

    Thats gone. Won't recover for a decade. Perhaps longer.

    Whats left is a decimated service sector that was really a secondary offshoot from the profits generated by flipping and speculating - electronics, gadgets, retail.

    And then there's the Auto Industry. It was on life support during the BOOM. There are simply too many competitors, building too many cars, paying too many unionized fucks, too much money.

    We couldn't support their overhead and output during the best of times. Damned if we can support them now!!!

    Whats left?

    Military. Homeland Security. Pork-Barrel Handouts. Pharma/Healthcare. Federal Jobs.

    Everything else is gonna take a enormous hit, in terms of demand.

    Forgive the long-winded tirade.

    Tieing it back to State budgets.

    Unless State programs adjust downward to the long-term drop in revenue, then we're gonna see a lot more California's.

    Endless social programs, perks and legions of State employees will simply be unaffordable. And who will buy their debt???

    Not US Banks. Not global Banks. Maybe the FED. That, along with everything else, spells our next problem.

    Flight from USD = dollar collapse. If and when that happens, America's fate is sealed.

    Economic Depression. Social and Political Upheaval.
     
    #13     Feb 22, 2009
  4. The least understood item on the list is "tax revenue"....

    It is going down like a stone in thin air....

    ...................................................................................

    The idea of a 10% consumption tax is two fold....

    1) Gives an immediate incentive to produce/consume that is broadly distributed....

    2) Satisfies a tax revenue need better than the progressive model....in that the tax take will be more and more reliable....which will help placate those countries which are expected to buy US debt....

    ............................................................................

    One must remember that it is not the US that is buying its debt....it is mostly China....to the tune of over $3 billion per day....not including the increases per day via the recent surge in debt....
     
    #14     Feb 22, 2009
  5. gnome

    gnome

    I was thinking about this thread overnight...

    You know, we already have some foreign industry in the US.... Auto makers... Toyota, Honda, Nissan (others?)... EMPLOYING AMERICAN WORKERS... and from what I've heard, the workers are happy about it.

    What we NEED is more of that! More foreign industry to come to the USA... and a "business-friendly, tax-friendly" policy of government would do that.

    The path we're on now is one of CANNIBALISM. And you can't cannibalize your way to prosperity...

    If you can see the difference between what we have and what we need, doesn't that make you at least CONSIDER that all of this mess has been INTENTIONAL?

    Instead of our celebrating a NObama victory, we should be OUTRAGED at his economic plans!! :mad:
     
    #15     Feb 22, 2009
  6. achilles28

    achilles28

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    The doe-eyed bambi's need coaxing to get the bigger picture.

    Globalization is an agenda. So is hemispheric integration.

    Economic 'regionalization' and free trade plays a pivotal and central role in all of it.

    Its clear to anyone with half a brain that free trade with nations that pay workers 10 cents an hour makes American workers obsolete. Capital follows labor and presto. They knew it. Just like they know the Mexican Border is wide open and terrorists don't immigrate through US Customs.

    Everything is obvious. People are just so brainwashed. Totally and completely deluded. Its approaching pre-WW2 Germany.

    Getting back to Free Trade.

    Where did China get all the money to build tens of thousands of factories, sky scrapers and literally NEW METROPOLITAN CITIES?

    Everything in Shanghai is new.

    Where did the Chinese get the money to build that? They somehow pull themselves up with their own boot straps and "know-how"????

    No. American money built China. American capital built their factories.

    China is an American Product. That's no surprise.

    1930's Germany is the exact same story. Went from reparations and poverty to BOOMING economy in a few years. Massive capital projects and investment suddenly appeared out of nowhere - from a bankrupt Country - while the entire World was at the mercy of the Great Depression.

    Its the same concept. Countries cannot industrialize that rapidly, under any conditions, without concentrated, exogenous capital. Its a mathematical certainty, as they say. Or, in this case, an economic one.
     
    #16     Feb 22, 2009
  7. lrm21

    lrm21

    I think the error the rational among us keep making, is that we think there is actual debate about policy

    There is no more debate. For whatever reason here we are and the path forward is one of either accepting the next 4-8-12 years as a loyal sheeple-zen or evaluating your options as an individual whatever they may be.

    Those in power are not interested in debate they are simply pursuing the path that will guarantee more power.


    The new stimulus bill was a wake up call, even though the people were angry about Tarp I and how it was rammed through, they just did it again with the stimulus. And as a slap in the face the president spends the weekend out. I bet many Americans ate Mac&Cheese with their special someone on Valentines.

    The time for debate is over. Its time to plan
     
    #17     Feb 22, 2009
  8. As someone that is a 4th generation Californian and actually lives in the State, it is clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about.

    First of all, California has never been considered a "high tax" state until the recent budget got passed. In fact, it was ranked 20th in the nation as of 2005.

    http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/index.html

    Second of all, the newly passed budget allows for a PERMANENT $1 BILLION dollar corporate tax break - - - directed mostly at multi-state and multinational companies that do business in California.

    It is an incentive for business to EXPAND operations in California; or at least not leave.

    If that is your idea of Socialism, you really need to go back to school.
     
    #18     Feb 22, 2009
  9. gnome

    gnome

    ...State income taxes are on top of the federal income tax, which currently tops out at 35%, as well as payroll taxes (contributions to Social Security and Medicare). Therefore, the maximum total rate is 35% of income in the states of Florida, Texas, and Washington, but 44.5% of income in Vermont and 45.3% in California[2]..." --- Wikipedia

    Notice California. Not a high tax state?
     
    #19     Feb 22, 2009
  10. As an outsider who has been sticking his head in and out of CA for almost 40 years, I could cry.

    In the 70s and 80s, I couldn't wait to jump on a plane to LA.
    Apart from all the fun times, there was a real feeling of 'can do' in the air and it charged my batteries more than anything else at the time.

    Even in the early 90s when the recession had yet to pass and we were spending more time in OC, we thought very seriously about setting up camp in CDM.... it was a great place.

    Now, when we visit CA I come away feeling like I need a holiday.
    My Wife, bless her, still maintains the romantic notions of yesteryear but admits that the whole thing is wearing thin now.

    I know that big chunks of the first world has sold it's heritage, only to find that the pieces of silver handed over in payment, were borrowed in the first place, and now they are stuck with all the hangover of the party, but none of the benefits.

    Some countries were smart enough to avoid the excesses of cheap credit but now they are tarred with the same fallout.... I bet those people are angry.

    Back to CA/US.

    Why do some people hold the belief that pain is a bad thing.
    Why do they think that borrowing a few Trillion to paint schools etc will fix an excessive credit problem.

    Why do they ignore the fact that it was the surpluses generated from the productivity of past generations that built the schools, universities, hospitals etc and built the nation.

    Why can they not learn from their own history and the history of others to see what set great countries apart from lesser countries.

    It was and still should be, productivity and creativity.
    It was not and never will be, consumption.

    Ever empire in history that ever believed consumption should replace productivity has failed and failed badly.

    regards
    f9
     
    #20     Feb 22, 2009