Interesting comments. Maverick, I hear what you're saying and I agree with the sentiment, but I think this thing is just a ticking time bomb. Any time you enforce a law there is the possibility of violence, but there is already plenty of violence on the border. Ranchers are invaded nightly by armed gangs of smugglers who cause enormous damage. Border patrol agents are shot at. I don't want to see women and children, men either for that matter, getting shot, but your option sounds a lot like surrender to me. As for employer sanctions and the like, that has long been the law. It is enforced sporadically. Basically it doesn't work, for a lot of reasons. I started this thread to be a strictly political discussion. The morality of this issue is interesting, but the politics of it are compelling. The simple fact is that voters are fed up with uncontrolled and illegal immigration, particularly from Latin America. Bush has turned his back on these voters. Can Dean capitalize?
We all do know that you used to an idealist. This is precisely what becomes of idealists when they are also losers: they end up as sickos... Now, go back to your machine gun...
I don't think its so much turning his back on voters as it is trying to appeal to the Latino voting block. As for Dean, there are too many liberals in favor of granting amnesty. If Dean tries to take an opposite position, he runs the risk of loosing some of his followers. This was a risky move on Bush's part. He may have had advance warning that Dean was going to take a position and is heading him off. Anyway you look at its a hot potato.
Rewarding people for breaking the law is WRONG Just as you shouldn't allow Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame because he's been hanging around so long that most young people don't see what the BIG deal is . . . Again, you don't reward people for breaking the law, book deal or no book deal!
It's immoral to deduct SS taxes from workers who are not eligible for benefits. Just another example of why SS/self employment tax is a hideous example of socialism at work.
No way CD! Absolutely not. But I think the idea is that if a busboy here on a work visa has paid SS taxes for several years he will be allowed to have those benefits repatriated into a Mexican retirement account. Keep in mind that Social Security only pays relative to what you put in. Not all retirees are treated equally. It's the fair thing to do. Charging income tax is one thing, FORCING workers to pay for a "pension" that they will never be allowed to collect skirts the issue of right vs. wrong.
No way CD! Absolutely not. But I think the idea is that if a busboy here on a work visa has paid SS taxes for several years he will be allowed to have those benefits repatriated into a Mexican retirement account. Keep in mind that Social Security only pays relative to what you put in. Not all retirees are treated equally. It's the fair thing to do. Charging income tax is one thing, FORCING workers to pay for a "pension" that they will never be allowed to collect skirts the issue of right vs. wrong. [/QUOTE] Social Security is a rip off period. It was designed to be voluntary not mandatory. In fact, a worker can refuse to have it deducted. All he has to do is sign a statement to that effect. All a bookkeeper is REQUIRED to do is file the statement. The govt can not force a worker to pay it. However its a subject to which workers, bookkeepers and business owners have to be educated on. What gripes me is illegals come into the states, received free medical and SS moneys. I have friends that work for the SS and they are infuriated.
You MUST pay SS taxes. Not optional!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Social Security Numbers and Taxes are Mandatory by Bill Hunot, Social Security Administration Hundreds of websites sell bogus instructions on how to stop paying taxes. Many of these scams involve Social Security tax refunds, opting out of Social Security, or revoking your number. Despite what you might read on the Internet, the law is clear: You cannot revoke your Social Security number. You cannot withdraw from Social Security. And your employer must continue to withhold Social Security taxes from your wages, even if you request otherwise. Beware of self-styled legal experts who lift a quote from the law, a legal decision, or a letter from a government agency, and use it out of context to support an invalid argument. For example, the Social Security Administration has sent letters to the public that say "The Social Security Act does not require a person to have a Social Security number (SSN) to live and work in the United States". I've seen this quote many times on the Internet in support of arguments that you can revoke your Social Security number. Although the Social Security Act doesn't require Americans to have SSNs, other laws do. In fact, most of the laws concerning Social Security numbers and Social Security taxes are in the IRS Code--not in the Social Security Act. Internal Revenue Code section 6109a requires individuals to get and use SSNs on tax documents, and to furnish the number to an employer, bank or any other institution that is required to provide SSNs on reports to the IRS. The IRS requires employers to report SSNs on their employees' earnings reports. Accordingly, employees must reveal their SSNs to their employers. Employees must pay Social Security taxes per Section 3101a of Subchapter A of Chapter 21 of Subtitle C of the Internal Revenue Code. This law is commonly known as the Federal Insurance Contributions Act or FICA. It is located in Title 26 of the United States Code, the compilation of all federal laws. Employers must withhold Social Security taxes from wages (Section 3102a of Subchapter B of FICA) and must match them (Section 3111a). Section 1401a of Chapter 2 of Subtitle A of the IRS Code requires self-employed workers to pay Social Security taxes. As with almost all Social Security laws, there are a few exceptions. It is true that some Americans don't pay Social Security taxes. For example, Social Security participation is voluntary for ministers: New ministers may drop out of Social Security, but only with respect to earnings from their ministry. Railroad workers don't pay Social Security taxes because they pay their own social insurance taxes to the Railroad Retirement Board. And some government employees pay into their own pension systems instead of paying Social Security taxes. But every other American worker must pay Social Security taxes. Ironically, in the course of their investigations of tax scams, the IRS finds that some con artists who brag about how they don't pay taxes, and charge high fees for revealing their "secrets", really do have a secret: they are actually paying their taxes. For answers to your other Social Security questions, go to www.francesperkins.org.