Bright trading and any thoughts

Agreed. His analogy, in particular, was perfect.

 

as was said don bright has tried to brand bright trading like a hilton brands a $300 room as being better than a $75 hampton inn room. the proofs in the pudding. i can hardly recall ever seeing a bright trader on this board yet don's parked on here night and day. were are all these successful traders don brags on?the one thing we all agree on is bright trading has a good reputation. THERE RATES ARE AN INSULT. i swear i looked at bright back in 2001 and they were charging near the same rates as now. SINCE THAT TIME OTHER FIRMS HAVE DROPPED RATES 70-90% WHICH MEANS BRIGHT IS MAKING A KILLING ON OVERIDES. but do i blame bright? hell no as i applaud him for being able to get away with this. i blame the ignorant traders . the 3 mil a month share guys are overpaying by around 10-12k amonth which is 120k a year. in 5 years thats 600k which could give them there own retail account and never need a bright.one thing bright has said time and time again is there rates are competitive with anyone. he's said many times traders from echo have come to bright and brights rates were as good or better than echo's. don patrick q says echo's rates are .0025 or better per share. which i know for a fact on high vol echo will go .002 min.AND ANOTHER HOUDINI TRICK BRIGHT USES IS TRYING TO THROW UP COMMISSION RATES FOR 2K SHARES AS THERE RATES DROP AFTER 1K SHARES I BELIEVE. 99% of traders do lot sizes of less than 1k. thats why people have per share rates. so if bright is charging .0075 for the first 1k shares and i'm paying .002 doing 500 share lots thats just and incredible difference.

 

Some punctuation would be nice....I trade through Bright and may consider looking at other avenues in the future but w/o getting into details I'm here and happy for the time-being. If you factor in withdrawals my account is up 500% net YTD. And there's a number of very profitable traders much more skilled than I am that have told me they don't visit elitetrader (they have better things to do with their time). So don't go off spewing garbage about a lack of profitable traders if you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I do like the discussion of this thread, i appreciate the opinions and posts made by most. It's definitely worthwhile to have this healthy criticism to educated noobs and experienced traders alike. What it all comes down to is the best fit for the trader, everyone is old enough to make their own decisions, if someone decides to pick a firm then that's their choice - no need for the hostility.

 

Many on here are using only one factor which is comparing rates vs. rates. A trader must factor into the decision all “benefits” one receives or does not receive when joining a PROP firm.

At BRIGHT one does pay a higher rate than at either ECHO or GENESIS.
However, do the experienced traders get higher overnight leverage and/or do the newbie’s get great training at BIRGHT vs. other PROP firms.

That’s why when I compared TUCO vs BRIGHT (pg. 34) the deal at tuco seems better than bright: lower rates and similar benefits. However, a “benefit” traders did not know was TUCO was a one man show and needed more help handling back office work.

While some like EricP correctly reminds us that BRIGHT has higher rates, does a firm like GENESIS or ECHO provide “benefits?” such as:

1. weekly payouts
2.100% profits payouts
3. high overnight leverage with lower interest rates
4. some training to newer traders
5. sound and accurate back office accounting.

Apparently BRIGHT’S higher rates and more “benefits” do in fact overcome other PROP firm’s which have lower rates but with limited “benefits”.

 

Echo has all but #4. And at Bright, while #4 is available, it is not free. You have to pay for the 3 day course and boot camp out of your own pocket.

Echo pays out twice weekly, btw.

And honestly, regarding #5, how do you as a trader personally know the back office accounting is any better at one firm than another? Tuco was paying out promptly right up until the time the SEC shut them down. It's easy enough to fudge those balance sheets that Don loves to harp about when things are heading south.

 

what is the failure rate at the various firms. is the failure due to slight higher fees?

 

I suspect that high fees is one of the greatest contributing causes for a trader to blow out.

If someone is swing trading (i.e. holding positions for days or even weeks), then the trader might be targeting average gains of $0.10 to $0.50+ per share and the effect of commissions/fees are likely negligible. However, for daytraders, an average profit of 2 cents per share might be a dream month, and 0.5 to 1.0 cents per share might be a 'good' monthly average. This being the case, an additional charge of 0.4 cps from inflated commission rates can easily be the difference between a trader 'making it' and bleeding his account dry. This is especially true for those trading commission intensive strategies. A similar issue exists for capital intensive strategies where the trader must pay a haircut for overnight capital usage.

It may not initially sounds like it would matter for daytrading, but trust me, over thousands and thousands of trades, those tenths of a cent per share in fees really add up quickly and the trader must decide whether he wants to improve his own balance sheet, or that of his broker.

 

Could not agree more.

I have traded 7.6 million shares this year and grossed slightly over $50,000... not that i'm at all the example of good performance but at the rates bright charges I would be out of the business pronto.

 

You know, I have met Don a few times in person. And unlike most on here, I actually don't have a problem telling people how I really feel about them face to face. Well, I sat down with Don and I had a lot of criticisms about his operation. We kind of aired out those differences.

But I will say this about Don, he and his brother have been around for 30 years. That says a lot. I have been in this business for 10 years and I can tell you right now, I can count on one hand how many people I have met in this business that I felt were honest people. The rest are absolute scum. You can say all you want about rates, but the fact is, since the late 90's, over 95% of the prop firms out there went belly up. That number should scare the shit out of anyone on this board who is serious about making this a long term career. The fact of the matter is, there are a lot of snakes out there, and most of them hide behind the cheap rate umbrella. All I'm saying is not everything is what they seem.

There is something to be said about integrity and character in this business. When I find someone I can trust I usually join them at the hip and don't leave them, because it's a rarity guys, absolutely rarity.

So keep going on about how you are paying too much for rates and you will never see the forest through the trees. BTW, I am a competitor to Don, and I have no reason to BS about his firm. I also don't kiss his ass. I grilled the guy pretty hard in person. Which most of you I know WOULD NOT do. I'm simply calling it like I see it.

 

I think it's wonderful that you feel honest and 'call it like you see it'. You are correct, there are a number of snakes and snakeoil salesmen in this business, and I've seen a few firsthand, myself, as well. Now, let's get to the point at hand. The discussion has revolved around to talking about rates, with mention of Echo, IB and Genesis (among others) that are financially solid, ethical firms that meet the needs of active daytraders. More specifically, these firms also charge much lower commission rates than do Bright, making them much more attractive to many traders.

Keeping your honesty and "call it like you see it" hat in place, do you have any reason to believe that any of these three firms can be described as "snakes" or unethical, or unsavory, or firms-to-avoid?

Many times we tend to get sidetracked on ET with broad generalizations, and with the lacking of specifics, anyyone can vaguely claim that the world is not a perfect place. A few pages back, someone suggested that all this talk of 'lower rates' was just talk, and that they wanted hard facts to back this up. Now that hard facts have been presented, you are suggesting, correctly, that some firms in the industry are less than scrupulous. However, since the specific firms were being mentioned (Bright, Echo, IB, Genesis), I am hoping you can comment on your knowledge (if any) of these specific firms, in regard to your concerns, rather than vague statements.

Personally, I can only reflect on my experiences as a Genesis customer for four years, that I hold them in the highest regard for their ethics, honesty and customer service. Sheddog and Patrick seem to feel the same way about Echo. IB, having the largest customer base on ET, seems to be a lightening rod for both positive feedback and criticism (but from those I know using IB, the customer viewpoint is quite positive - and if not, why would they have the largest client-base).

Do you have any experience with these other firms, and if so, what are your experiences and thoughts? Otherwise, I don't personally find vague references to "lots of snakes in this business" as being particularly helpful for this discussion without mentioning specifics, especially coming from a 'tell-it-like-it-is' person like yourself (no offense intended). So, spit it out, Mav.

As it stands now, it seems that the posters on this thread all agree that their are a number of very highly regarded firms from which to choose (in addition to some potential snakes to avoid), each of which have their own strengths and weaknesses. However, if commission rates are important for your style of trading, Bright would appear to be a less attractive candidate for your business than many/most of the other highly regarded firms.

Thanks.

Speaking for myself, over the last 18 months, I have saved well over $1M in commissions versus the cost I would have paid trading at Bright. I'm pretty confident that I can decipher the forest from the trees (although your comment might apply to others). As a trader, not a brokerage firm owner, those are important numbers to me.