possibly, but i'm not advertising and i never ask anyone to message me about a job. i'm building within, not externally. i'd pay headhunters and bribe them. i'm just making a point with respect to that kid's prospects. my guess is he will blow out within a month and go back to school for a masters or further. i know i would during a recession, and with student loans being refinanced now. take advantage of it. i would never recruit off this board, nor would i take out an ad to pay for it if i was. i'm not in the churn and burn game like most of the firms that advertise here. this is merely entertainment, lighting up the idiots on here makes for good research into the state of the market at the moment. if i did post an ad, with my list of successful trades and my numbers this year, fedex would be delivering resumes to my door by the truckload. sorry for the confusion.
I agree wholeheartedly with you Raskolnikov. Except I would say it's more like between 6 months and a year-and-a-half. If you haven't at least begun to approach breakeven in your trading losses (forget the expenses for now) or at least have some idea of what you're doing after 1 year's time, then you should probably consider doing something else. Being a prop trader (to me anyway) is the greatest career available (come and go as you please, make great $$, and it's ALWAYS challenging to continue to push yourself to grow beyond your perceived limits) -- BUT you really have to enjoy trading to succeed at this game. Everyday isn't as exciting as you may think. IMO, everyone wants to make good money, no matter their profession. Trading (especially as a beginner) can be tough. The desire for money probably won't be enough to pull you through the learning curve. You have to have a strong commitment to succeeding and be willing to do whatever it takes to get there. Everyone says they want it so bad because they have this passion and desire and blah blah blah. Work harder than everyone else around you and you'll give yourself a great shot at succeeding. There are some really good firms out there. True prop firms are not going to require you to put up a dime. If they require money from you then it's retail in disguise as a prop. Find a firm willing to train you and place you around talented traders that you can learn from. Annoy the hell out of those guys until you learn what you need to learn so that you can succeed.
i agree as well. but if you don't mind, name who these really good firms are. i'm curious to know how you know that if you haven't traded with them all.
I can testify that you do not need to have the greatest GPA or be from a Ivy league school to work for a legit prop firm. I graduated in May of 2008 and was hired at a start-up private fund (prop model) in Stamford, CT as a jr. trader. I had no financial risk whatsoever. No initial contribution, no software/quote fees, wasn't even responsible for commissions. From June of 2008 to August of 2008, I played around on the simulator and learned general information about the stock market and intraday trading. I finally went live in September 2008 when all hell broke loose. I broke even my first month, but lost money in October. In November, I only had four losing days and traded very well until middle of December. This is when I became overconfident, extended my stop-loss and got totally destroyed in January. Market changed from being choppy to trending in one direction. I stayed until March when I resigned. I learned that the parent company shut down funding of our firm and it was rumored that our shop was closing in May so that's why I resigned. Two weeks after I did so, 90% of the traders were gone. Search Genesis and you should find my thread. My P/L was overall negative, but not by much... It was a great learning experience although I ultimately failed. I have no regrets and it was a great learning experience. In hindsight, it seems that I learned what to do and not to do when I stepped away from trading for longer than a month. Anyway, I've been hired by a second firm to continue my trading education. I will be relocating from NY to Atlanta, but I have confidence that with more training I can become profitable. I also have no financial risk whatsoever (aside rent and food). Hopefully my previous experience will remove my bad habits and hopefully the market will give me opportunities. In terms of you wanting a trading career, pursue any firms you can. It doesn't matter if you don't have a Ivy education. Most people I talk to want the hungry, street kids as opposed to Ivy "geniuses". My former boss was against hiring overly smart candidates because they tend to be overconfident in their ability and struggle admitting that they ever could be wrong (refuse to take a losing trade). This is also consistent with many other firms. The firms that want smart Ivy guys are the one's where their strategies have to do with market making in options or arbitrage. FirstNY is a good example. Other than that, their are other legit firms that hire regular college grads. You have to show that you are passionate and will do whatever it takes to improve your chances of being profitable. Traders are usually the alpha-male personalities so you need to tell them you would do whatever it takes to become successful. Now from experience, being a new trader is not glamorous. Get used to eating Ramon noodles and being very poor for at least 6 - 12 months... Get used to renting out a room with a sketchy landlord or just a shitty place in general. You will be poorer than you were in school. Many guys have part time jobs on weekends and some even after work hours. Life is tough... trust me I did it for 9 months. But I will do it again soon when all the paperwork is complete with the Atlanta firm. Even if you make money as a new trader, it won't be much because whoever is in charge won't let you go too big. You have to be extremely dedicated to survive in this business. Even if you work your ass off, which I did, it could not work out. Here are some resources: http://www.tradersnarrative.com/list-of-proprietary-trading-firms-735.html http://tracereed.com/ Good luck PM if you have any questions.
Sounds somewhat similar to my story. I graduated in the summer of 2006 (august) and got the job in September, passed my series 7, 63, and 55 and started training in December '06. I put up no cash for anything ever. I wasn't hired as a junior trader however and I WAS responsible for quote fees and commissions -- but not up front. The company covers your costs until you make back your trading losses, then you must make back that money that they've spent on your lunch, commissions, software, exchange fees, health insurance etc...then you start earning a paycheck once everything is back to flat. Being a new trader isn't glamorous unless you have your parents bankrolling your lifestyle -- which I didn't have. I had a little money saved, but after about 2 months I had to get a night job working at a call center 6 days/week. It sucked having to go there at night and trying to get people to donate money after struggling through a trading day, but it served as great motivation to improve. I worked that job for about 4 months before I was able to quit. I guess it depends on what firm you're with when it comes to increasing your trading size. At my firm, once you begin to prove yourself, your rate of trading size increase isn't limited to a specific timeframe -- it's more of a case by case basis. It's not easy to make it. It can take an enormous psychological toll in the beginning. But if you stick with it and do A LOT of introspection it can be very very rewarding. I remember our 3rd day of training the CEO came in and told us that out of the 3 guys in my class, statistically speaking, only one of us would make it! Reality check. So much for statistics because all three of us made it. Monty21 --- I'm guessing you're going to Opus Atlanta huh? They were my 1st choice until I discovered my present firm. I didn't like the guy that interviewed me over the phone. They offered me an opportunity to come in for the interview but I declined it. Anyways good luck in ATL. I hope you make it.
of all the prop firms i've researched and spoken to traders within those firms, FNY is consistently at the top of the list. i am extremely impressed with the content of their web site, assuming of course, they are able to back it up. but so far, others have done so for them, and as in any business, a reputation for success is all you need to be the best in class. i'd be there myself if i were just starting out, and even now if i were starting over from nothing, but i'm 20 years removed from eating ramon noodles and working a second job to finance my learning curve. this time around i'd like to control my own destiny and build something beyond just a positive pnl.
I hope u aren't going to Opus the old ETG. I heard it is a major chop shop and the payout is miserable.
I agree that FirstNY is consistently one of the best. They operate more like a hedge fund than a simple prop firm. I believe they have a lot of quants. It makes sense that many of their candidates have MBAs from Ivy schools. FirstNY also pays its prop guys a salary. I know of one older guy that does International arbitrage and he worked there when he was young. He had issues with the managers and eventually left. Chicago has a lot of similar firms with less name recognition. Wolverine is one of the more popular ones. As I mentioned earlier, these firms do a lot of making markets, especially in options. They are not just about momentum trading or scalping like most prop firms. On a last note, just by going to a Ivy school or having a quant background won't make you a profitable trader. Quant hedge funds have been doing very poorly in 2009 (Renaissance). I am saying this because I don't want to discourage anyone from trying to make it as a trader because they may not have the perceived necessary credentials. Many times overly smart people become poor traders because they over analyzing everything and fail to admit that they can be wrong. Remember, there is no right or wrong way to trade. Some people will become successful with backgrounds in math and physics and others will be successful without even obtaining a bachelor degree. If you want to work in a hedge fund or Investment bank, the trend obviously favors the quants. But in terms of prop firms, formal education is largely irrelevant. In almost all props, you have to ultimately teach yourself how to become profitable by any means. The bottom line is to make money, it doesn't matter if you do so by writing a complex algorithm or by buying on the dip in a uptrend/selling the dip in a downtrend.
computers like humans can not predict the future. january to march was proof enough that whatever systems were in place before The Crisis were not as smart as those of us who went short and held on for it to hit bottom. now all these math geniuses are trying even harder and taking even more risk to make up their losses and are more motivated than ever to save face. when the world dumps us treasuries and the usd becomes as worthless as the paper it's being printed on then we will see just how smart wall street and it's ivy league greed junkies really were. i'm betting on it.