Bitcoin ETF?

Discussion in 'Crypto Assets' started by long, Oct 21, 2023.

  1. no, it does not work like that unless they are active discretionarily managed ETFs. All of the ETFs that are awaiting approval only hold spot bitcoin long with no hedging or timing element at all.

    Again, in the future, I expect there to be short only bitcoin ETF as well. But the ETFs, are not at the discretion of the manager, whether to be long or short, they are explicitly stated in they have to follow their stated prospectus.
     
    #71     Oct 28, 2023
    long likes this.
  2. long

    long

    Looks like I’m gonna buy some more
     
    #72     Oct 28, 2023
    semperfrosty and GlobalMacro90 like this.
  3. If anyone wishes to go long Bitcoin/Ethereum ETFs now, you are welcome to purchase any of the dozens of SPOT crypto ETFs on the Toronto Stock Exchange. You are free to short Puts/Calls as well.

    In fact, you can also short the ETFs directly. I've been loaning them out for years now under IBKR's Stock Yield Enhancement Program. The interest rates on these share-loans are amazing.
     
    #73     Oct 28, 2023
  4. long

    long

    How amazing?
     
    #74     Oct 28, 2023
  5. long

    long

    The CME doesn’t determine a price, it just provides the platform to exchange contracts. Buyers and sellers make bids and offers. When a bid matches an offer a trade happens and that price is what is quoted by the CME as the “last price” until another trade happens. TLDR; the price is determined by buyers and sellers, not by the exchange. Prices from other exchanges aren’t considered, only actual trades on the CME platform.

    The only price estimates that are made by the CME are for far out months with little to zero trading volume, it’s called a synthetic closing price. Let’s say that November BTC futures closed up $5000 yesterday while the February contract didn’t trade any contracts during the session. There will be a synthetic closing price that estimates what Feb might have closed at if it had traded, based on mathematical models. This synthetic close isn’t an offer or bid. To trade a feb at that price you would have to put your order in at that price and see if there are any takers.

    Manipulation….
    If someone was to try to push BTC futures down by using full leverage what do you think would happen? If futures drops to 20k while actual spot BTC stays steady at 35k or rises then trader’s would flock to buy the futures because it’s a bargain. And…they would be leveraged in the opposite direction. There are lots of famous stories about people who have tried to manipulate a market using futures and it never works out. Leverage is a double edged sword and markets are pretty efficient at keeping manipulation in check. If I see that futures are going down while cash sales aren’t I’ll be buying futures to take advantage of the temporary inefficiency and I’ll be completely confident in the trade.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
    #75     Nov 15, 2023
  6. Pekelo

    Pekelo

    You may want to look up why there are no onion futures.

    Also, the Hunt brothers would like to disagree.
     
    #76     Nov 15, 2023
  7. Id think bitcoin at a 600BB market cap is borderline too big for these games.
     
    #77     Nov 15, 2023
  8. long

    long

    I never even knew there were onion futures. Is there a story there?

    As for the Hunt brothers, they were on the buy side trying to increase prices. I don't think it would have went as far if they were sellers instead.
    "When the price of silver dropped below their minimum margin requirement, they were issued a margin call for $100 million. The Hunts were unable to meet the margin call, and, with the brothers facing a potential $1.7 billion loss, the ensuing panic was felt in the financial markets in general, as well as commodities and futures. Many government officials feared that if the Hunts were unable to meet their debts, some large Wall Street brokerage firms and banks might collapse.[5]

    To save the situation, a consortium of US banks provided a $1.1 billion line of credit to the brothers which allowed them to pay Bache which, in turn, survived the ordeal. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) later launched an investigation into the Hunt brothers, who had failed to disclose that they in fact held a 6.5% stake in Bache.[6]"

    This wasn't a success for anyone.
     
    #78     Nov 15, 2023
  9. long

    long

    Someone like the Hunts could try it but it would be stupid and reckless.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
    #79     Nov 15, 2023
  10. Pekelo

    Pekelo

    Since you don't like to google:

    1. In 1955, two onion traders, Sam Siegel and Vincent Kosuga, cornered the onion futures market on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. The resulting regulatory actions led to the passing of the act on August 28, 1958. As of July 2023, it remains in effect. >>>aka no onion futures anymore

    (In the fall of 1955, Siegel and Kosuga bought so many onions and onion futures that they controlled 98% of the available onions in Chicago.)


    2. The Hunt brother successfully cornered the silver market, price went from 11 to 50. The freaking US government had to step in and change the rules of the game and that is what screwed the Hunts over. But their original play was a great success.

    So your assumption that a futures market can not be cornered is not based on history.
     
    #80     Nov 15, 2023
    long likes this.