Big Brother would be proud

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Madison, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. horseman


    This is scary. The government may decide that chips are too expensive and just tattoo a number on everyone's arm.
    #11     Nov 19, 2002
  2. Josh_B


    ...This is scary. The government may decide that chips are too expensive and just tattoo a number on everyone's arm...

    But the gov't will not get at least the following benefits among others:

    Global tracking of subjects through GPS

    Remote ID

    Remote monitoring of bodily functions

    Remote control of bodily functions/activities (try to oppose anything and you will be pacified or killed on the spot) For security reasons of course.

    And the list can go on....

    Not cheaper but money is no object, courtesy of our tax dollars and few other covert operations, but that could be a subject for another thread.

    #12     Nov 19, 2002
  3. horseman


    You make a good point. Question: can these chips be de-activivated by passing a powerful magnet over them?
    #13     Nov 19, 2002
  4. Josh_B


    ..You make a good point. Question: can these chips be de-activivated by passing a powerful magnet over them?...

    I don't know, but one may bet there might be some type of extra fine legal print, that upon implantation and thereafter, any effort to disable them or remove them, may cause loss of working, credit, driving, voting, housing privileges etc... Or maybe a self destruct mechanism that takes the host down is also included.

    Who knows... the more all this comes to the surface the more it looks like a scary science fiction movie coming true.

    I was reading about the Echelon System that has been going on since the 1940's and it's truly amazing what has been and is happening behind the scenes.

    #14     Nov 19, 2002
  5. Babak


    This is a very scary possibility....:eek:

    I have to remind myself that I am a meliorist.
    #15     Nov 20, 2002
  6. wild



    Rep. Kucinich (D-Ohio)
    Questions The 'Patriot Act'

    How Can We Justify This?

    Let us pray that our nation will remember that the unfolding of the promise of democracy in our nation paralleled the striving for civil rights. That is why we must challenge the rationale of the Patriot Act. We must ask why should America put aside guarantees of constitutional justice?

    How can we justify in effect canceling the First Amendment and the right of free speech, the right to peaceably assemble?

    How can we justify in effect canceling the Fourth Amendment, probable cause, the prohibitions against unreasonable search and seizure?

    How can we justify in effect canceling the Fifth Amendment, nullifying due process, and allowing for indefinite incarceration without a trial?

    How can we justify in effect canceling the Sixth Amendment, the right to prompt and public trial?

    How can we justify in effect canceling the Eighth Amendment which protects against cruel and unusual punishment?

    We cannot justify widespread wiretaps and internet surveillance without judicial supervision, let alone with it. We cannot justify secret searches without a warrant. We cannot justify giving the Attorney general the ability to designate domestic terror groups. We cannot justify giving the FBI total access to any type of data which may exist in any system anywhere such as medical records and financial records.

    We cannot justify giving the CIA the ability to target people in this country for intelligence surveillance. We cannot justify a government which takes from the people our right to privacy and then assumes for its own operations a right to total secrecy. The Attorney General recently covered up a statue of Lady Justice showing her bosom as if to underscore there is no danger of justice exposing herself at this time, before this administration.

    Let us pray that our nation's leaders will not be overcome with fear. Because today there is great fear in our great Capitol. And this must be understood before we can ask about the shortcomings of congress in the current environment. The great fear began when we had to evacuate the Capitol on September 11. It continued when we had to leave the Capitol again when a bomb scare occurred as members were pressing the CIA during a secret briefing. It continued when we abandoned Washington when anthrax, possibly from a government lab, arrived in the mail. It continued when the Attorney General declared a nationwide terror alert and then the Administration brought the destructive Patriot Bill to the floor of the House. It continued in the release of the Bin Laden tapes at the same time the President was announcing the withdrawal from the ABM treaty. It remains present in the cordoning off of the Capitol. It is present in the camouflaged armed national guardsmen who greet members of Congress each day we enter the Capitol campus. It is present in the labyrinth of concrete barriers through which we must pass each time we go to vote. The trappings of a state of siege trap us in a state of fear, ill equipped to deal with the Patriot Games, the Mind Games, the War Games of an unelected President and his unelected Vice President.

    Let us pray that our country will stop this war. "To promote the common defense" is one of the formational principles of America. Our Congress gave the President the ability to respond to the tragedy of September the Eleventh. We licensed a response to those who helped bring the terror of September the Eleventh. But we the people and our elected representatives must reserve the right to measure the response, to proportion the response, to challenge the response, and to correct the response.

    Because we did not authorize the invasion of Iraq.

    We did not authorize the invasion of Iran.

    We did not authorize the invasion of North Korea.

    We did not authorize the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan.

    We did not authorize permanent detainees in Guantanamo Bay.

    We did not authorize the withdrawal from the Geneva Convention.

    We did not authorize military tribunals suspending due process and habeas corpus.

    We did not authorize assassination squads.

    We did not authorize the resurrection of COINTELPRO.

    We did not authorize the repeal of the Bill of Rights.

    We did not authorize the revocation of the constitution.

    We did not authorize national identity cards.

    We did not authorize the eye of Big Brother to peer from cameras throughout our cities.

    We did not authorize an eye for an eye.

    Nor did we ask that the blood of innocent people, who perished on September 11, be avenged with the blood of innocent villagers in Afghanistan.

    We did not authorize the administration to wage war anytime, anywhere, anyhow it pleases.

    We did not authorize war without end.

    We did not authorize a permanent war economy.

    Yet we are upon the threshold of a permanent war economy. The President has requested a $45.6 billion increase in military spending. All defense-related programs will cost close to $400 billion. Consider that the Department of Defense has never passed an independent audit. Consider that the Inspector General has notified Congress that the Pentagon cannot properly account for $1.2 trillion in transactions. Consider that in recent years the Dept. of Defense could not match $22 billion worth of expenditures to the items it purchased, wrote off, as lost, billions of dollars worth of in-transit inventory and stored nearly $30 billion worth of spare parts it did not need.

    Yet the defense budget grows with more money for weapons systems to fight a cold war which ended, weapon systems in search of new enemies to create new wars. This has nothing to do with fighting terror. This has everything to do with fueling a military industrial machine with the treasure of our nation, risking the future of our nation, risking democracy itself with the militarization of thought which follows the militarization of the budget.

    United States Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-Ohio)

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    #16     Nov 20, 2002
  7. vvv


    wild, thanks for posting that.

    dubya, our terrorist in chief, and his quest for totalitarianism in the usa:

    The Dubya Jihad

    The last week has been an amazing sight: two decades' worth of accumulated public distrust of government -- and nearly a year's worth of governmental power grabs -- finally running headlong into each other. Guess what? The government is going to lose.

    The victim, in this case, will be the Terrorism Information and Prevention System—Operation TIPS, the Bush Administration's ill-conceived effort to encourage everyone to spy on everyone.

    From the moment it was announced a week ago Monday, the White House proposal to spend millions of tax dollars encouraging, processing, and acting on the information provided by people whose jobs and lives take them to other peoples' homes has seen some swift backpedalling. It's also been falling apart. The U.S. Postal Service almost immediately announced that it wouldn't allow its carriers to participate on the job. Private carriers, utilities who employ home inspectors and meter readers, and a flood of other agencies and businesses who send their workers out into the field followed suit.

    They balked for obvious reasons. Meter readers or building permit inspectors have a difficult enough time convincing wary members of the public to let them onto private property or in the door—let alone cooperate with whatever task is at hand—without having to fear that the next customer is a prospective terrorist who might open fire if he feels that his cover will be blown. And forget the James Bond stuff—there's a one in a zillion chance of such encounters, but a far, far higher chance that some drug dealer, mentally-unstable paranoid, or other person fearful of daylight will have a heightened sense of fear of such intrusions. Fear, in our heavily-armed society, doesn't just make these folks' jobs tougher—it can also lead to aggression and, um, high employee mortality rates.

    Beyond the commonsense recoiling of folks who work with and among the public, and their employers, a great big swath of the public itself was also outraged by Operation TIPS. From staunch conservatives like House power Tom DeLay (who is bucking his own party's president by introducing legislation to kill TIPS) to the ACLU and like-minded liberals, an awful lot of folks saw in Operation TIPS an invasion of privacy that carries an unpleasant reminder of Nazi snitching: turn your parents in to the authorities—they might be a threat to the Fatherland, er, Homeland. And then they're somehow never seen again.

    With John Ashcroft declaring that U.S. citizens (as well as "aliens") need not even be charged with a crime to be held indefinitely, fear of such state- sponsored malice lies just under the surface of many folks' discomfort, fear, or anger about the Bush proposal. But the real kicker is the knowledge of how human nature, in law enforcement and in the rest of the world, works. What if an angry neighbor who doesn't like where you parked your car on the street decides to turn you in? Or the guy down the street who seems to be talking to thin air whenever you see him? Are you confident that once the bureaucracy gets your name into its maw, it will let go, even if that tip is demonstrably preposterous? Don't count on it. Most people don't.

    There's also the unpleasant and uncomfortable matter of real treachery, real bigotry. Listen to one Richard Rucireto, a Brooklyn FedEx driver quoted in a New York Times article on his willingness to turn in anyone who looks Muslim or Arab: "Whenever I would go to a place where there was a lot of them [Muslims], I would tell the landlord, hey, you got nine people living up there or whatever, and they would call the FBI and get them checked out."

    Given the number of non-citizens in the last year who have been disappeared into INS dungeons without ever being charged with a crime, the last thing any non- police-state-loving country needs is more Ruciretos stoking the Gulag furnace. Rucireto is hardly alone in his sentiments.

    Beyond that, most Americans already have the common sense to let someone know if they see some guy ordering boxcutters in bulk or lugging around an assembly manual for suitcase nukes. The mechanisms for processing and investigating such tips already exist. What the White House was after, and what they surely thought would be a simple and uncontroversial program, was something different: an extension to the War on Terror of the snitch principle that already governs much of America's justice system.

    The War on Drugs hasn't gotten two million people into jail because of vigilant police; more often, it's been a daisy chain of people offered reduced sentences through guilty pleas and (real or invented) testimony against other people, who then name others, and so on. A climate of harsh sentences and heavy pressure both on defendants (to name names) and on prosecutors (to get good conviction rates) ensure enormous incentives to make stuff up. This system has helped transform America's courts into the equivalent of what mail-order degrees are to higher education: great conviction rates, but the advertised accomplishments are paper thin. And in this case, they also ruin a lot of lives. Applying such a model to the War on Terror has real and obvious potential for its own brand of terror.

    The War on Drugs is increasingly unpopular for a number of reasons—the pointlessness and inefficacy, for one, and the expansion of government power, for another. The spectre of expanded state power has spooked many people about TIPS. Soon, hopefully, the same sort of accumulated, nagging questions will burst into public consciousness around the War on Terror's efficacy, too. Just as the drug war has spectacularly failed, in only ten months Dubya's War on Terror has done many things—from expanding global military aggression to blowing a gaping hole in the federal budget to blowing an even bigger hole in the Bill of Rights—with absolutely nothing to show for it. Unlike other countries, absolutely nobody in the United States has been charged, let alone convicted, of a terrorism-related crime.

    After countless thousands of "detentions," FBI "interviews" of other Muslims, staggering amounts of money, technology, and weaponry devoted not just to investigating 9/11 and al-Qaeda, but (at this point) just about any political or religious organization that loves Allah and hates America, there is nothing to show for it. Nothing, that is, but a whole new crop of people who resent the United States and who one day might be inspired to act on their resentments.

    As the anniversary of September 11 approaches, there will be a lot of heat and a lot of flag-waving and memorializing -- but there will also be an opportunity to take stock of what the last year's responses have, and haven't, accomplished. Operation TIPS was just the latest in a breathtakingly multi-pronged Bush Administration effort to use 9/11 to expand the power of American government, and that of the Bush clique itself.

    This particular proposal is an obvious enough setup for abuse, incompetence, and waste; as such, it's being soundly rejected by much of the public. With any luck, Americans will increasingly apply the same criteria to the rest of the Dubya jihad.
    #17     Nov 20, 2002
  8. Maybe the IRS should thank bin laden...


    Pentagon to Track American Consumer Purchases
    Thursday, November 21, 2002
    By Major Garrett

    WASHINGTON — A massive database that the government will use to monitor every purchase made by every American citizen is a necessary tool in the war on terror, the Pentagon said Wednesday.

    Edward Aldridge, undersecretary of Acquisitions and Technology, told reporters that the Pentagon is developing a prototype database to seek "patterns indicative of terrorist activity." Aldridge said the database would collect and use software to analyze consumer purchases in hopes of catching terrorists before it's too late.

    "The bottom line is this is an important research project to determine the feasibility of using certain transactions and events to discover and respond to terrorists before they act," he said.

    Aldridge said the database, which he called another "tool" in the war on terror, would look for telltale signs of suspicious consumer behavior.

    Examples he cited were: sudden and large cash withdrawals, one-way air or rail travel, rental car transactions and purchases of firearms, chemicals or agents that could be used to produce biological or chemical weapons.

    It would also combine consumer information with visa records, passports, arrest records or reports of suspicious activity given to law enforcement or intelligence services.


    see also:
    Pentagon confirms 'snooping' system
    #18     Nov 21, 2002
  9. yeah those f^ckers will have a file on me when i move to the netherlands...

    anyone see 1984 the other night - i think it was on TV friday night...good movie, freaky eurythmics soundtrack...oh the '80's...
    #19     Nov 21, 2002
  10. hey VVV, Bungrider,





    Wake up and smell your own bullshit coming back to haunt you in spades. The enemy is not Dubya, or the GOP, the enemy is the growth of government intrusion into our lives. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN OVER 50 YEARS THAT THE GOP HAS CONTROLLED CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENCY AT THE SAME TIME, AND WE ARE UNDER ATTACK BY TERRORISTS, YET YOU WANT TO BLAME BUSH FOR EVERYTHING.

    #20     Nov 21, 2002