09-02-05 05:22 PM So....what exactly are you bringing to the table besides some math degree? Well a lot, the math degree is the least of my skills. Most importantly I am bringing to the table the traits necessary to succeed in the markets and the willingness to do so. I worked full time at nite and went to school half time during the day, and still managed to explore and pursue a career in trading. From the dozens of books I have read and my own personal experience trading I have a pretty good idea what it takes to succeed. Right now I just need to get with the right firm and be a part of the right team in order to get it all put together for me. The last thing I want to be is some dime a dozen market maker or sales trader that is soon to be replaced by a computer. I mean it looks like the NYSE is going to become a wax museam soon. Why the coveted 300K? It's not coveted, that ant crap, but I am determined to succeed and will hopefully be making much more than that some day, otherwise it's not worth it. Look, right now I can go get a job in some pharma company, or other safer and more stable environment and fall asleep at my desk during the day and work 5 minutes from my home, or I can go all out and never look back and plunge into the chaos, pressure and uncertainty of pursuing a trading job. Pursuing a trading career is not the best choice for job stability. But it seems to me that trading is a way of life and the kind of life I want to life. I am intensely focused, competitive,athletic, and detached. I climbed Mt.Everest, and thats the most important traits needed in trading or plain old any job. I will go and get a MBA our masters in a quant finance if needed to make it, but that won't make me successful trader.
As a 33 year old I would bet my last $ that nobody is going to hire you as a traders assistant or floor clerk. Your gonna get interviewed and the first question will be "what took you so long to get here?". But hey, I would love to be proved wrong on that matter. choice 1 - Use your network to get a job working closely with an established trader/money manager. Segue into choice 2. choice 2 - Put up some risk cap and learn to trade. I wish you luck. I myself am 33 and have been at this game since 1996..and learn something new everyday.
I would agree about the 95%, except that number only applies to retail traders without the capital or tools to participate in the strategies that work (correlated pairs, automated alogorythymic models, and the ability to hold large positions overnight). Many don't seem to realize that my brother and I were on the same side of the fence for 2 decades before starting Bright Trading. We both left "careers" to start trading, and it took a while to do well, but we never could have done it without joining an exchange and enlisting the financial support of a clearing firm. If you're going to trade anyway, you may as well take off all the handicaps, to give yourself the best chance to make it. I agree that 5 years on the trading floor, or in a "legitimate" trading room is a good way to go (I seriously doubt any major bucks are being paid these days, however)...but the experience is worth living sparsely for a that time. To each his own...I think there is another 5 years of solid opportunity in the equities markets, with the above caveats. All the best, Don
So far a lot of people who I have been talking to have a lot of respect for someone who had to work to put themselfe through school, and are more interested in a mature and focused adult than a spoiled rich kid from fresh out of school.
I realize that you are the sponsor of this web site and thus you can say no wrong, but that part is misleading at the least. Derivatives industry is growing at a very rapid pace and the number of quantitative people that are needed to work there is growing with it. For someone who knows math, a job with an IB or a hedge fund is a great gig - you get 80-150k in your first year and you get to learn a lot of things from smart people. Enterpreneural types seek opportunities to make money, any way they can. The people that I know who have joined a prop shop, did not fit this description. I don't believe for a second that an established doctor/lawer or someone from Wall Street that has achieved something would join a retail prop shop. To add to my point, could you honestly (sic!!) : (a) explain how your "prop" firm is different from trading from home, since one puts his core capital at risk in both cases? (b) what percent of people that join your firm actually turn out as profitable traders?
The best place to position yourself is within earshot and sight of a successful trader wherever that may be. Work for free as an assistant by day and tend bar at night. Find this person through contacts. Your degree and GPA are meaningless to making great money consistently. You can use your diploma if you want to be in sales or quant analysis or programming but there are no diplomas for trading in the black consistently. You'll need to use everything you have learned in life to do that and to get a job at a major. If you attain a high level of success trading your first thoughts will be to find another successful trader and team to branch off into freedom. My thoughts on the matter. I know of two MSDW brokers that have branched off but they do little actual trading themselves and have no problem taking credit for the results. Good Luck to you. Let us know how the process is going.
Quote: I climbed Mt.Everest Now your on to something. I would love to hear the details about that climb. If your trying to find a super job you must show why your better than people that already have the qualifications you have too. That climb showed risk taking, determination, courage, etc.....You get the point. But trading is a brutal equation. What you think has no bearing, nor do degrees. In most cases college degrees only proved that you could show up and do what you were told. (I am not bashing, I have them too). In trading you must find your system that fits you. For your career: 8am-6pm do whatever allows you to save $100K to $400K as quickly as possible. 6pm-12am & weekends learn what to do with $ you will be saving
Hey millydog i dont think it is that easy to make 300 k in the 1st or 2nd year of day trading i my self i am 27 and will be joining a prop firm after closing my businesss in 2 to 3 month I belive that even if i make $1000 a week that like $1000 X 4 week $4000 a month is not bad to start i will be trading 5 days and will not make any haste trade and if i think the day is not good to trade then i will just hold on but i have to hit $1000 a week The best thing is that i am my own boss i trade from 9 to 4 and then i can do whatever i want eb\ver i want after that working for some oen is a pain in the ass no matter how hard you work they are looking to hire nebie with a low paying job and liek don said the upside is greater then the downside hope my post will he of any help to you
I certainly don't have the background or experience as Don Bright. But I have spent significant time both in investment banks and associated with prop firms, maybe I can offer my $0.02. The main focus for you for the first 2-3 years is to learn, in detail, one trading methodology, whether it be standard discretionary trading, fundamental research, automated algorithm arbitrage, or floor market making, etc. There are successful careers to be had in *any* of the trading methodologies. I know that I can name 5-10 people who have made > $5M / yr using any of those techniques. So the main focus would be to find a methodology that suits your ability and background. Since you have a lot of high level contacts, you might want to get some general idea of "how" they trade, whether it is cross-market arbitrage, quantitative models, fundamental earning research, or directional following. Then evaluate which methodology interest you, that you find intellectually challenging, and most importantly, you feel like you can go "deeper". In my opinion, the key is to find something that you can be "of value". "hedge fund", for instance, differs wildly from pure mathematical quantitative, to fundamental research based long / short, to exotic trading (say re-insurance), to investor activism, to real estate, it covers such a large spectrum that the word has lost most of its meaning. In a way, a trader for, say convertible arbs, differs so much from a NYMEX local, and they are doing completely different things, no different than between a research analyst and a financial advisor, in a way. Find out more about "how" they trade, what kind of general models that they use, etc. What Don said is right, in a way. The investment banks are getting more and more algorithmic and model driven than ever before, so the modelers are getting a lot of attention, and the former discretionary traders are getting the boot. Now, these guys, a lot of them still with good contacts in the market, still want a place to trade. Similarly, a lot of future floor locals are being forced to learn screen based trading, for instance. But, the investment banks are also hiring Quants, Modelers, Risk analysts, and system developers at a rapid pace (go to, http://www.quantster.com , to see how many Quant jobs are open). Again, you just need to find something that works for you, and then follow the right person to learn the details, then you will be successful. Rufus
Quote: I climbed Mt.Everest Now your on to something. I would love to hear the details about that climb. If your trying to find a super job you must show why your better than people that already have the qualifications you have too. That climb showed risk taking, determination, courage, etc.....You get the point. But trading is a brutal equation. What you think has no bearing, nor do degrees. In most cases college degrees only proved that you could show up and do what you were told. (I am not bashing, I have them too). In trading you must find your system that fits you. For your career: 8am-6pm do whatever allows you to save $100K to $400K as quickly as possible. 6pm-12am & weekends learn what to do with $ you will be saving Mt. Everest Yeah , I just got back from MT.Everest last month. I enclosed a picture. I did not make the summit although I climbed to about 22,500 ft on it or just above the Khumbu Icefall, which is perhaps the most dangerous part. The summit was not my intention, I climbed with 3 local Sherpa guides to just above camp 1 on the South Col. We where in Nepal for about 6 weeks, and this was my first time ever mountaineering, talk about poor risk to reward ratio. The Sherpas trained me when I got there and then we spent some time climbing some small peaks and learning. I was not expecting to go that high on Everest but an opportunity came about for me to go and I went for it. I was never so scared in my life. If you want to talk about emotional control I'll give you an example of something I learned their. We had just began descending from the summit of Island Peak 20,300ft, see the pic, and I slipped and fell about 10 ft to the edge of a 500ft drop. I was on a fixed rope and it stopped my fall just a few feet from the ridge which I was sliding towards. I immediately froze and dug myself in deep into the mountain with my crampons and ice axe, I became frozen as a wall of fear slowly came upon me, I could actually see it coming. My first reaction was our most primitive defense mechanism "fight or flight" and I wanted flight, I wanted down,, and down now, and I didn't mean climbing down, just get me down and back home. Well guess what? I was at 20,000ft the only way down was to climb down, all the way down , another 5 hours of descending. We where the only 4 people on the mountain and a snow storm was coming in , we climbed during the risky pre-monsoon season. Well I told myself I had to get it together, and not panic, and just do it. Well I did it and it was an experience and a fear I never knew existed. Looking back now , after that I realise that it takes an emotionally stable, and put together individual to have dealt with that situation. I know that a lot of people would have just broke down and panicked. If you break down up there either physically or mentally you are dead and they just push you into a crevasse for burial. Sometimes in life we get angry and loose our temper, or we panic, or we act irresesponibly and all along as we are carrying out our actions we know that in the back of our minds that we are in control and, perhaps acting a bit. Well this was the first time in my life where it was just plain and simple, do or die, and I did. That's why I like trading and know I belong as a trader, only in trading have I experienced similar, although milder fear and emotional hurdles to overcome. Trading to me seems like a way of life. My whole life long I studied martial arts and have believed in the way of the warrior and all that stuff. Well trading is it. "The sword that takes life, is the sword that gives it."