beginner with options trading question

Discussion in 'Options' started by Cyse, Mar 30, 2016.

  1. Ummm . . . no? Disregarding the wider bid/ask spread on the typical debit spread, it is identical to the credit spread with the same strike prices & expiry. One downside to credit spreads is the fact that the short leg will go ITM before the long leg, which potentially exposes the seller to assignment w/o an ITM long option to cover.

    There is no fundamental difference between the 2 spreads if pricing is equivalent (other than the risk mentioned above). By "equivalent pricing" I mean the debt is equal to the spread minus the credit.
     
    #11     Mar 31, 2016
  2. OptionGuru

    OptionGuru


    • Yes ....... And that would be a good time to exit - when the short strike becomes ATM/ITM.
    • You also might find it better to just buy the long OTM option only, instead of making it a Debit Spread. The short option can really hold back potential profits.




    :)
     
    #12     Mar 31, 2016
    Cyse likes this.
  3.  
    #13     Mar 31, 2016
  4. I have been a user of the ToS platform (live and simulated) for many years. I trade emini S&P 500 options (Symbol ES) credit spreads. That said, your question begs a few more questions, e.g.;

    what symbol did you trade
    stock, etf, futures
    why did you decide on that particular symbol
    fundamental and/or technical analysis
    what expiration date
    how did you you choose expiration date and strike(s) of the call you sold
    did you use ToS' Options Hacker (under the scan tab)feature to identify the call you sold
    did you use ToS' Analyze tab to look at risk analysis and probabilities
    what criteria did you use in your scan(e.g. Probability, Delta, days to exp, Vol)
    did you have a stop loss number in mind and did you place that order along with your sell order
    do you have a written trading plan and, along with that,
    do you have a written trading strategy
    did you follow your plan and strategy

    When entering a trade i always use the foregoing questions before hitting the send order button. You need to have a plan and, as a part of that plan, a strategy and be able to stick to it.

    I recommend that, if you haven't already, read the following books which are a part of my library and which I have found to be useful.

    Options Pricing and Volatility (2nd Ed.)
    Natenberg

    The Complete Guide to Options Selling (3rd Ed.)
    Cordier and Gross

    Getting Started in Options (8th Ed.)
    Thomsett

    All About Options (3rd Ed.)
    McCafferty

    Trading Weekly Options
    Rhoads

    Options Spread Trading
    Rhoads

    Vertical Options Spreads
    Conrick and Hanson

    Options as a Strategic Investment (5th Ed.)
    McMillan

    The Bible of Options Strategies (2nd Ed.)
    Cohen

    Trading Psychology 2.0: From Best Practices to Best Processes
    Steenbarger
     
    #14     Mar 31, 2016
    Cyse likes this.
  5. They do act alike in terms of directional bias or delta. They act differently in terms of how they are effected by vega or volatility and theta or time decay.
     
    #15     Mar 31, 2016
  6. Let's break this down. You're bearish on MSFT? You expect it to drop to something near or below the strike price of your short put at expiration?

    You need to read up on the P/L of your spread at expiry WHICH IS A FUNCTION OF YOUR COST. Your cost effects the point at which the trade becomes profitable.
     
    #16     Mar 31, 2016
  7. You said "a debt spread needs the stock to move a certain direction." That's not always true. If I am bullish on a stock and I buy a call debit spread in which both legs are ITM, then I don't need the underlying to rise. I don't even need it to NOT fall. I just need it to not fall so much that it expires below my breakeven point (assuming I am seeking a profit, which is pretty much the point of putting on a trade).

    You also said "in other words credit spreads have a higher probability of profit but they don't have as much reward as a debit spread." This is not true. The P/L (or risk:reward) of credit and debit spreads are identical, at least at expiry. There might be minor differences along the way, but not much . . .
     
    #17     Mar 31, 2016
  8. When referring to OTM spreads with different strike prices. With a debit spread more time is your enemy and more volatility is your friend. With a credit spread more time is your friend and more volatility is your enemy. Purchasing an option outright has similar characteristics as a debit spread. I like selling credit spreads because as time passes and the stock doesn't move its still profitable. IF you sell credit spreads in a high volatility environment you can also profit as volatility falls. I like spreads vs selling naked because they define my risk.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
    #18     Mar 31, 2016
  9. Yes you are correct. I should re phrase that i am referring to OTM spreads, in which the debt and credit spreads would have different strike prices. I think it is easier to learn about spreads when you look at them as being OTM. I would recommend that thought process as a beginner.
     
    #19     Mar 31, 2016
  10. With a debit spread more time is your enemy and more volatility is your friend. With a credit spread more time is your friend and more volatility is your enemy. Purchasing an option outright has similar characteristics as a debit spread. I like selling credit spreads because as time passes and the stock doesn't move its still profitable. IF you sell credit spreads in a high volatility environment you can also profit as volatility falls. I like spreads vs selling naked because they define my risk.


    Really? Let's take an example, using Greeks from optionsXpress:

    SPX bull call (debit) spread (both legs ITM)
    Delta = 3.87
    Gamma = -0.05
    Vega = - 6.38
    Theta = 1.52

    SPX bull put (credit) spread (both legs OTM)
    Delta = 3.48
    Gamma = -0.04
    Vega = -5.16
    Theta = 1.01


    I'm sorry, but "time is your enemy" is a false statement, for both spreads. As time goes on, with no change in the underlying or volatility, your profit will grow, because theta is positive. Looking at the individual legs will show you that the only sign difference is in delta, but the net spread delta works out almost the same (and positive, because we are talking about bullish spreads).
     
    #20     Mar 31, 2016