I am very sorry to hear about these unpleasant experiences. FWIW, I am an "emerging" CTA and systems developer. I've written 11 long-term and ultra-long-term systems and decided to make one of them available to the public. My main reasons were as follows: 1. It is similar in purpose and performance to 10 other systems I have written. 2. Capacity is not an issue, as the average position size in each of these 10 systems is 5 contracts per million under management and each system has 4 entry and exit orders. 3. Significant price levels change only weekly so it is a snap to disseminate the signals. 4. Marketing is done primarily through systems brokers so very little involvement is required on my part. 5. A diverse revenue stream is important to me, especially as I build the CTA. I have been trading this system in an account along with 2 of my other systems. That account returned 30.38% since October 1 with no reinvestment of profits. M/E ratio was 22% so extreme leverage was not used. 5 of the 7 commodity groups produced profits during that period so the results were not dependent on a "home run". Max peak-to-valley drawdown during that period was 11.7%. (Past results are not necessarily indicative of future performance.) I guess the point that I am trying to make is that there are, in fact, honest and responsible developers out there who make good systems (at least, in their opinion) available to the public. It is really a shame that so many criminals operate under the guise of systems developers and trading coaches. It makes this business quite unpleasant for those who try to provide products with real value. jj
Excellent Post. I stumbled on Elite Trader by accident a couple of years ago. I have advanced technical degrees and at the time was a Financial Advisor for one of the big firms ( since retired in the Keys). I was enamored with statistics and math and ready to jump into technical analysis, but took a more cautious and slow approach after reading many of your posts. I quickly realized that most of the material out there is snake oil - why develop a system that works and sell it. Hell, trade it, get rich and forget the hassle. I also found many excellent references to other sites, books etc. I bought 3 books based on recommendations and linked up with dozens of sites and in the end I found that there is so much excellent material out there for free that you do not need to buy any - no books, no courses, no systems. They are yours for free if you look. I do subscribe to 3 trade mags to keep up with the latest and for interest in the field. Thanks to the many well informed and well intentioned experts on here who put much effort and time into this board to help out people like myself who are just starting out. I have now developed "my own" system and am doing very well trading. It was basically free and I was unencumbered with all the bull and noise from "technical experts" who have great expertise with no practical application. Keep it simple really does matter, especially with all this noise and clutter. Only a real "expert" can do that. So save your money. Read all you can get your hands on, try everything that makes sense, be very skeptical of great revelations and systems that will make you rich. That way you will have some money to start out when you are ready to trade seriously.
Well they might find their reputation damaged? I sent omnitrader back and got a refund no problem. Vantage point? - no refund, no way.
I have been trading for many years. I occasionally review sites like Elite Trader primarily for laughs. I never cease to be amazed at the negativism of a series of clowns who obviously couldn't trade their way out of a wet paper bag, critiquing others who take their risks in the public sphere. The suggested guidelines by Samson are interesting but basically nonsensical. Here's a clue for those participating in the real world: no one is going to give you the names of unsatisfied customers. Period, end of story. This goes whether you are talking about trading systems, refrigerators, cars, toilet bowls, cleaners, or brooms. Get a clue. I have found that trading the past is remarkably easy. In fact virtually every nimrod in here who has nothing but negative things to say about everyone else, is a perfect example. They want track records,. They want back testing, Hooey! The problem is trading the future, not the past. The biggest waste of time, and one that I note most of the self-proclaimed experts here devote much of their time to, is trading the past. Testing the past will perfect your trading the past. Unless you goal is to sell systems to other nitwits don't waste your time. You see, the real challenge comes in trading the future. One point that did actually make sense, even a blind squirrel as they say, is requiring a money back guarantee. Over the years, since the early 1970s, I have spent far more on trading systems and books than Samson. I give him a lot of credit of trying as many as he has. However, in all that time, and all that money, I have never asked for my money back. If they are good enough to con me, I pay the piper and move on. But I realize some people are not so forgiving. You know what they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, and we have a two party political system! The fact of the matter is that successful trading has far less to do with "magical," complex or even mundane systems, than simple psychology. Any disciplined trader who understands the business could out trade everyone of the biggest blowhards here, simply flipping a coin and exercising proper money management. That is the whole secret. Cut your losses and let your profits run. Not a terribly original thought I know, but terribly difficult to do in practice. My decision to jump in with my 2 cents was occasioned by a recent discussion with David Landry, one of the few participants here with class, and an understanding of what it takes to make money. Mr. Landry does not pretend to have some computerized holy grail. In fact, he refers to himself as a "trend following moron" as the basis to his system. It's a scheme that all his critics should be so lucky to practice. Most people simply misunderstand what the business of trading is all about. You are not trading against anyone else. You are trading against yourself. Not against the guy next door. Not against Dave Landry, thank your stars. Not against George Soros, his brain damage problems and all. Yourself. Period end of story. Each trader should review plenty of basic material on technical tools like charts and indicators, until he finds a few things that make sense to him or her. For most I would think the Landry books are a good starting point. Some commentators here like Jeff Cooper. Perhaps he is for you, but is a bit too much of a blowhard for me. Perhaps most importantly pick up a couple good books on the psychology of winning trading. It is not as sexy or seemingly profound as the latest mathematical whiz bang formula, that is actually a sure path to the poor house. But then again that formula you paid too much for and trusted far too long, does give you a great excuse while in bankruptcy court: why it worked so well on the computer!! What it takes to succeed is understanding what is between your ears (for those few here without vacuums there). My personal favorite is Jake Bernstein's INVESTOR'S QUOTIENT. Mark Douglas's DISCIPLINED TRADER, or Van Tharp's TRADE YOUR WAY TO FINANCIAL SUCCESS are also worthwhile additions. There are only about a billion books repeating the same things about technical analysis. Read the originals: Wilder's NEW CONCEPTS, William's DEFINITIVE GUIDE TO FUTURES TRADING (talk about two bozos who couldn't trade a nickel for a quarter from a blind kid!), and Murphy's tome (come on nobody really ploughs through THAT turgid tract in its entirety). Then find a few advisories with things to say and education to impart (see my recommendation below). Any numbskull who thinks all they need do is pay someone $500, $1,000, or more, and they will be guided to riches gives numbskulls around the world a bad name. The idea is to find someone whose approach makes sense to you. Perhaps they do some of the grunt work. I for example no longer plough through hundreds of charts and indicators when there are services that will do it for me. I merely take that info they so efficiently sorted out for me. Since I know that successful trading is primarily cutting losses (not spending hours on ferreting out pointless mathematical nuances as though they mean anything), I make money steadily and consistently using these others' inputs. I know from reading the comments in these pages that these exact same services, that I use to great success, are regularly lambasted by know-nothings who will never make a dime except by the sheerest luck. By the way, I authored and edited a number of highly rated advisories over the years, and yes, my mailbags were filled with equal number of letters of praise and condemnation. And they were all reading or getting via telephone hotlines, the EXACT SAME advice. Its been years since I participated in the advisory business for that very reason. For websites, I highly recommend TradingMarkets.com, of David Landry fame for one. If you are expecting hot tip heaven, forget it, it doesn't exist. But for continuous intelligent commentary from a variety of commentators (some I like, some I can stand, and others are to nonsense what the Sporting News is to baseball), realistic perspectives on the business of trading, and yes, loads of ads for their premium services (which I manage to ignore), it is the the best value out there. But check out the hundreds of others. It won't cost you a dime to see what they look like. One last point. Many of the "experts" in these pages suggest that you should only read books from "proven" traders, as though being a successful trader somehow enables you to write competently. The skills of a writer are far different from trading skills. Some of the very best educational materials you will ever find are written by people for whom "clueless" is the highest possible praise of their trading ability. Virtually all of Jake Bernstein's numerous books and materials are invaluable. Yet, no one ever confused Jake with Richard Dennis, or Paul Tudor Jones. There are truly great educators in the business who cannot provide you with great trading tickets. So What?! Take most of the highly negative blatherings that you read here from anonymous know-nothings with a grain of salt. Only you can test the value of the many products out there. And remember the most valuable criticism is that which tells you why something is good or bad. Ignore the numerous idiotic rumors that such and such author is a victim of Mad Cow disease, or even worse, takes advice from Anna Nicole Smith, or has a former dimwitted associate saying negative things (duh!), or some other such idiocy. This is the longest I have ever written in the field without payment. And it will be my last contribution. Don't bother commenting or sending me emails. I don't care about your opinions, your complaints, or your problems. For at least one or two readers I hope this cuts through the negativism out there and provides some value. I suspect that Mr. Landry will confirm my own experience. Successful traders in general have a great positive outlook on the markets and life in general. You don't find whiny crybabies knocking everyone and everything among real professional traders. The world is a great place and the markets are a wonderful challenge that constantly changes and tests us hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, and for our entire lives at least for those of us who decide make that trip. It is an awe-inspiring, uplifting, life affirming experience. I truly extend my wishes for the best of luck to all of you. You will need it as long as your focus is on developing perfect technical trading systems that somehow will account for every human foible (and remember those are what ultimately drive prices), rather than learning to understand and discipline your own foibles as a trader. Keep your heads up. You stop earning when you stop learning. But you will never learn when all you can do is find problems, complaints, errors, treachery, and deviousness wherever you look. Tolive
This was a great post. Although I agree with all of it, what I left (above) really was enough. Especially the money management part. And yeah, everyone should read Mark Douglas..."Trading in the Zone" was the only book I ever read on trading that really made any difference to me. ...(I guess I should check out "Disciplined Trader" on jerroldd's recommendation) and even "The Zone" can be condensed to essentially this: "Trade without fear, but don't be reckless". I will add that Larry McMillan's "Options as a Strategic Investment" was a major education for me at one time in my career. But I don't think it has much use for the vast majority of ET traders. It is a textbook, and the majority of the strategies are not employable by non market makers. There is a huge difference between trading on "haircut" and trading under the constraints of margin. So I no longer trade options at all. (I had tried fairly recently for the first time in many years and the first time at all as a "customer", but ended up getting no fills at all at my limit prices, so I gave up). And yes, there are systems available that are free. And that really do work. But without discipline, the very best are exactly as worthless as the very worst. Peace, RS
Tolive, Great to read what you have to say but why leave at one post? you obviously have experience we could all learn from. You know beofre I bought VP - a very expensive software system I looked on Elite and found no comments on it. So I relied on some old review in SFO ( think) Recently it was mentioned - and the bad reviews agreed with my findings . If that thread had been there a year ago I could have saved thousands. Isn't that worthwhile? I have bought several books from the site you mention - and feel they gave fine value. A couple of days ago someone asked on another thread about one of the traders (burgess) on the site On the site he says: "During my entire professional trading career, I've never had a losing year, including my most recent 5 years as a pit trader. " Why doesn't he say what you said - that whether anyone trades successfuly or not is irrelevant to what they teach. I think because it does make a difference. Samson posted this thread after he advertised one of the systems ( turtle , that he bought for $5000) in the classifieds. Another poster pointed him to a website where the same system was being given away for free because the owner (one of the original turtles) was disgusted that it was being sold for such an amount. Note that the expensive system was reviewed favourably in Stocks and commodities magazine. You see most of us do start out very gullible and learn the hard way but sometimes elite can save us a few dollars. As for psychology- most the books you mention are recommended here every month if not week. Like to hear more from you!
Samson77 wrote: Logically, this makes these necessary and sufficient conditions. But could you say what trading system you would be a reference for?
I think that this is good insight for those seeking to buy a system. Although, by law they DON'T have to furnish you with the above requested information it is good to listen to the reasons as to why? Remember, just because they don't give you the above info that you requested it does NOT mean that what they are selling is garbage. When I was a broker I was by NFA standards forbidden from furnishing such track records and under the "right to privacy" I was unable to give out "references" of current client lists. BUT, then again I was not selling a system but rather I was selling myself and my trading talent. What I used to do was to have potential clients come in a see me "live" in the trading room. They were given the unique opportunity to come in and watch me trade. Needless to say that I opened almost every account that came in to watch me in person.
While I acknowledging Tolive's contribution to this thread I will again compliment Sampson on the original posts and follow up with a little of the thought behind that compliment. It's simple really -- a beginning trader must preserve his/her capital. If you can learn your lessons and still have a few grand in the kitty you are blessed. Any information that can further this goal I consider good. My personal example involved Jae Yue and the Underground Trader site. From the recommendation of a friend it is where I first went in late 2000 when I started. Did I "learn to trade" there? -- no, in fact after a few months I determined that for me, his trading methods were nebulous if not BS. He did however save me a TON of money in those first few months by encouraging me (actually pretty much berating...he does this to all the "newbies") NOT TO TRADE but rather to watch the markets until I developed some understanding. If I was gonna stumble into a site that followed questionable tactics, at least I stumbled into one that didn't encourage me to blow my wad. Sampson's advise isn't the perfect way to find what works for you - but it's a great starting filter cause it saves you lost money. Tolive is right...no one give you the phone numbers of dissatisfied customers, but most of the scam artists won't give you anything at all because it signifies your desire to perform due diligence. It shows you are the type of person they'd rather avoid. When it comes to a beginners money, pretty much any filter is a good filter cause it's about survival. A tip of the hat to Tolive for the insightful and positive contribution and another Bravo for Samson. JB