just a thought for you to consider -- for many people religion is based on being thankful. There are many wealthy smart succesful christians who have lived very full lives. They are not sitting there thinking, oh my god I might die tomorow and my existence will cease. many go to church frequently to thank god for the lives they lived or continue to hope to live. I had no fear of dying and for about a decade lived a pretty good life. I choose to believe in God out of love for life not fear. I used to chase after large surf and do some other rather adventurous activites. I was fortunate enough to make substantial cash off one large business case as a lawyer and then I made decent money trading for about 5 years. So I was young and living in San Diego without any responsibilities and some cash. My mom used to ask me what if you die. (she was very concerned about my surfing and mountains sports) I told her -- on my gravestone I wanted her to write "this man had a free lunch". I was thankful for that life and went to church out of happiness not fear. I will admit, now, that I have become the father of little children, have more responsiblities and less income -- I am fearful of dying, but not for myself for my kids. Beliving in God can give you great peace. But that peace is not the opposite of fear. And that peace is worth knowing.
I have a question re. "family values". It seems the Republican/Christian agenda is to promote "family values" and that includes monogomy. Where in the Bible does it say a man should only have one wife? Seneca
isn't that just a symptom of the shortsighted view of the fat and happy american mentality. for every wealthy person who believes in god there are millions who live in poverty. [/B][/QUOTE] believing in God can give you great peace. But that peace is not the opposite of fear. And that peace is worth knowing. [/B][/QUOTE] if belief in mythical tales of primitive man is what it takes to give you peace what does that say about your mental health. could you not cope with life if you actually concluded as many of us skeptics have through a study of the evidence, that the bible is a book of fables? Beliefs should be a search for truth and understanding, not denying reality so you can have faith in a compendium of books written by unknown authors over hundreds and hundreds of years complied much later by other fallible men, as 100% literally correct. That is a faith that is truly blind.
it was not a view of anything but a counterpoint to the fact that many intellectuals think that religion is for dumb fearful people. I happened to live in some of the most expensive areas of the country and met many successful, highly educated, intelligent, non fearful christians. vhehn - I think you are putting just as much faith in your rebuffs of religion as I do in my belief in God. So far your big anti proof of God is that you feel sure there was no worldwide flood. I pointed out to you that some people were saying the old testament properly translated does not state there was a world wide flood. You and I both know we are relying on others for hebrew translation and nuance. I do not consider your position any less faith filled than mine. If you wish to bring up other points go ahead, I am always willing to learn. As far as the peace is concerned, I wonder in all your years as a believer, do you not know of the peace, calm and happiness to which I am speaking.
no but i have now. i know a lot of believers from my past life as a believer and i am here to tell you they have the same fears and troubles as non believers. the only difference is they have an imaginary friend to talk to. it is uncomfortable at first when you lose your imaginary security blanket but once you begin to experience your newfound freedom of mind you will quickly begin to realize that you are capable of coping on your own. when you have faith in something it seems to me it would be important that that something be real. i hear you say that you dont care if its real as long as it gives you some kind of peace.
i am interested in learning also. some of the things i am interested in learning: i like to understand what drives the delusion. why do otherwise intelligent people believe in superstition? why do people see prayer fail over for life and death situations and yet still believe it works? why has every generation since jesus died been positive he was coming within a few years and it has failed to happen every time and yet every sunday preachers in this country proclaim that jesus will return any day now and the sheep sit there in the pews and believe it. why do believers in america claim god is responsible for their fat and lazy lifestyles while 25 million children die every year of starvation. some of it can be explained by this article: Psychological Explanations of religion Psychologists have long been fascinated by religion as something that exists in all societies. They ask whether "religion" is actually a name given to various psychological drives, rather than a response to the existence of God or gods. Such a belief is clearly atheistic. Religion, to the common man, is a "system of doctrines and promises which on the one hand explains to him the riddles of this world with enviable completeness, and, on the other, assures him that a careful Providence will watch over his life and will compensate him in a future existence for any frustrations he suffers here." Freud, Civilization and its Discontents Religion comes from Emotions Human beings believe in God because they want: A father figure to protect them from this frightening world Someone who gives their lives meaning and purpose Something that stops death being the end To believe that they are an important part of the universe, and that some component of the universe (God) cares for and respects them These beliefs are strongly held because they enable human beings to cope with some of their most basic fears. Even if this is true (which it probably is) this doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, but merely that we are psychologically likely to believe in God whether or not he exists. Atheists argue that since religion is just a psychological fantasy, human beings should abandon it so that they can grow to respond appropriately to deal with the world as it is.
your responses hardly seem reasonable. first lets take a step back. First on the other thread I pointed out to you that it is appropriate, using science, to say that a belief in the random creation of the universe takes more faith than believing the universe was caused by someone or something. Once you accept that concept I do not understand how you can feel your "superstition" of randomness is intellectual superior to someone else's belief that God created the universe. Really, considering that science has no idea what created or preceded the big bang, how can you feel so secure denying the existence of a superior force or being.
i dont accept that premis. there is no basis in the evidence to suggest that it is any more likely that life was created by someone rather than a random event. if you were not indoctrinated to believe a book written by primitive men is true you could not accept it either.
You have just as much indoctrination of the theists do going on, you just won't accept it as indoctrination...you want to call it "science" but it is a belief system none the less, and a belief system that offers no way in which to falsify or prove the scientific theories of "evidence" that are available. I still don't understand so called "logical folks" arguing against the faith of others, when they practice their own kind of faith that is far, far from any sort of fact or evidence. Not a single scientific theory produced and accept as irrefutable has excluded the possibility of God, or God's existence, or God having created the universe. Science cannot even properly define God, science doesn't even have any idea how to measure God as defined...yet so called "science" can comment on God? It is absurd. Good scientists stick with what they know, what they can prove, and leave the rest alone...or relegate it to its proper place as scientific faith.