OT, 1. Do you have a citation for 1? I've found the opposite. 2. Sure they were; guess that answers where you found the source for your claim 1. OTOT-if God provided for them why was this not mentioned? 3. IF you read the bible literally, like many do in believing the Creation myth, you have to read all passages literally or you are being dishonest. I'm not accusing you of this as I don't know your thoughts on the Creation myth or which of the several stories of Creation in Genesis you believe. Seneca today's Bible thought: Genesis 32:30 (King James Version) And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved John 1:18 (King James Version) No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Is this a little clearer? Or how about a Bris for the morning: "This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." Genesis 17:10 "...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." Galatians 5:2
cmon without even looking it up you know that galatians quote in the new testament is not contradicting the old. Now your first contradiction seems to require context. did he see the face of God in a vision or a dream, -- was it meant literally. if you are going to prove the bible wrong present both sides of the argument and your reasoned conclusion.
But the inhibiting of one's own ability to accept something by simply refusing resolutely the possibility of holding a different point of view, is hardly conducive to a better understanding of the world, is it.
lets change your last sentence to:"what benefit is there to change viewpoints and not believe in allah"and then think about 9-11 or the hundreds murdered every day in iraq over religious differences. i have no problem with a believer who follows matt 6.6 but when you try to force your beliefs on me or our education system i object.
Stu, if we fixated a different thread on solving the chicken or egg sequence, how much energy of effort & thought would be involved? Where would the solution come from, and at what cost? Belief in anything is simply a decision of faith. It also includes an understanding that no factual proof can ever be compiled to edit a verdict. In other words, question of doubt will always exist. I'm perfectly content to follow my own belief until death in this life leads to what comes next. For those in here who honestly think they can affect other individuals and possibly government viewpoints, I wish them all the best in that endeavor. As for myself, the ES and ER command much more attention :>) Best Trading Wishes Austin
for some of us the truth and knowledge of our existence has more value than the comfort of some imaginary security blanket.
1. See Exodus 10:7; that was the relevant concern in Egypt right before the 7th plague. See Exodus 14:13 regarding the impact of the splitting of the Red Sea. 2. See Exodus 13:20-21 regarding the cloud of glory and the pillar of fire that led the Jewish people through the desert. 3. See my answer regarding your Jacob quote. As for your quotes from Genesis, you are working with an English translation, I am working with the original Hebrew. The original Hebrew says "Elo(k)him" which in many places means angel. The section is obviously talking about fighting with an angel, and the Jewish commentators say it means angel of God. Also, a famous example of not to read the Bible literally, rather with proper interpretation, is "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" which means financial restitution, but written that way so that the rich man will not view the poor man's tooth as a financial issue (if to knock it out or not), rather as important as his own tooth. BTW, As for your Bible quotes, if you are citing quotes from Christian doctrines (Galatians), you should pose those questions to a priest.
<i>i have no problem with a believer who follows matt 6.6 but when you try to force your beliefs on me or our education system i object.</i> <b>vhehn</b> is 100% correct... atheists and christians alike should never try to force their belief on another. Present both views equally in school, let the children decide for themselves with parental guidance. Let those who wish to pray in school do so, let those who pledge allegiance to the flag in its entirety do so. No repression of any beliefs... couldn't agree more. Spot on! * The security of our existence here & now is likewise enough for all of us... we'll each face what comes past this life soon enough. As for the great Crusades, 911 and mankinds' eternal domination attempt of one religion over another? I would opine that religion for any of them was merely an excuse, a social mask to do harm in the name of good. If religion hadn't been the excuse to opress will against another, a different excuse would have been invented. Trade To Win :>) Austin
cant agree with you there. religion does not belong in the schools at all. lets imagine a science class. do we tell the teacher to allow the kids to choose between a biblical creation fable or real science? i imagine your tone would be different if the school prayer was to allah.
First you attempt to prove your faith without resort to science, and then when I demonstrate that your position can be defeated without resort to science, you jump back to science as a means of proving your position. Make up your mind about how you wish to support your beliefs, because belief is all that you or anyone else will ever have to support your faith in an all powerful creator. There is nothing in any of the events that you describe that could not be done by a sufficiently intelligent natural being, despite your "belief" to the contrary. An alien capable of faster-than-light interstellar travel could easily have the technology to fool the sensory perceptions of millions of people simultaneously. Hell, any good hypnotist entertainer can convince an entire audience that it's raining in the theatre. Magicians have been performing the feats that you describe as divine for centuries -- there's nothing supernatural about any of it. Unlike most of those who are arguing against God here, I do not dismiss His existence. He may exist and He may not, but NO ONE can prove it either way, no matter how convincing they may believe their argument, because the quintessence of what makes God all powerful, is that He cannot be measured by any naturalistic methodology. So, no matter what the Jews may have experienced when God purportedly handed down the Torah, that experience would be unverifiable as being a divine event, even if every single person who experienced it were still alive to testify to it right this instant. The only path to God is through faith. All other paths are a dead end.