Atheism: Self-creating universe

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by peilthetraveler, May 30, 2011.

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  2. Sounds like a religion to me.
  3. Nothing new here. Creationists using agnosticism to rationalize their beliefs in miracles -- not physics that haven't yet been discovered but ...miracles. And, misrepresenting atheism as
    believing they "Know" the answers instead of, "we'll always be
    working on the answers". Okay, God pulled the Universe Rabbit out of a hat, but question for God, "how'd you do it?"
  4. Miracle definition

    an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the simple volition of God, operating without the use of means capable of being discerned by the senses, and designed to authenticate the divine commission of a religious teacher and the truth of his message (John 2:18; Matt. 12:38). It is an occurrence at once above nature and above man. It shows the intervention of a power that is not limited by the laws either of matter or of mind, a power interrupting the fixed laws which govern their movements, a supernatural power. "The suspension or violation of the laws of nature involved in miracles is nothing more than is constantly taking place around us. One force counteracts another: vital force keeps the chemical laws of matter in abeyance; and muscular force can control the action of physical force. When a man raises a weight from the ground, the law of gravity is neither suspended nor violated, but counteracted by a stronger force. The same is true as to the walking of Christ on the water and the swimming of iron at the command of the prophet. The simple and grand truth that the universe is not under the exclusive control of physical forces, but that everywhere and always there is above, separate from and superior to all else, an infinite personal will, not superseding, but directing and controlling all physical causes, acting with or without them." God ordinarily effects his purpose through the agency of second causes; but he has the power also of effecting his purpose immediately and without the intervention of second causes, i.e., of invading the fixed order, and thus of working miracles. Thus we affirm the possibility of miracles, the possibility of a higher hand intervening to control or reverse nature's ordinary movements. In the New Testament these four Greek words are principally used to designate miracles: (1.) Semeion, a "sign", i.e., an evidence of a divine commission; an attestation of a divine message (Matt. 12:38, 39; 16:1, 4; Mark 8:11; Luke 11:16; 23:8; John 2:11, 18, 23; Acts 6:8, etc.); a token of the presence and working of God; the seal of a higher power. (2.) Terata, "wonders;" wonder-causing events; portents; producing astonishment in the beholder (Acts 2:19). (3.) Dunameis, "might works;" works of superhuman power (Acts 2:22; Rom. 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:9); of a new and higher power. (4.) Erga, "works;" the works of Him who is "wonderful in working" (John 5:20, 36). Miracles are seals of a divine mission. The sacred writers appealed to them as proofs that they were messengers of God. Our Lord also appealed to miracles as a conclusive proof of his divine mission (John 5:20, 36; 10:25, 38). Thus, being out of the common course of nature and beyond the power of man, they are fitted to convey the impression of the presence and power of God. Where miracles are there certainly God is. The man, therefore, who works a miracle affords thereby clear proof that he comes with the authority of God; they are his credentials that he is God's messenger. The teacher points to these credentials, and they are a proof that he speaks with the authority of God. He boldly says, "God bears me witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles." The credibility of miracles is established by the evidence of the senses on the part of those who are witnesses of them, and to all others by the testimony of such witnesses. The witnesses were competent, and their testimony is trustworthy. Unbelievers, following Hume, deny that any testimony can prove a miracle, because they say miracles are impossible. We have shown that miracles are possible, and surely they can be borne witness to. Surely they are credible when we have abundant and trustworthy evidence of their occurrence. They are credible just as any facts of history well authenticated are credible. Miracles, it is said, are contrary to experience. Of course they are contrary to our experience, but that does not prove that they were contrary to the experience of those who witnessed them. We believe a thousand facts, both of history and of science, that are contrary to our experience, but we believe them on the ground of competent testimony. An atheist or a pantheist must, as a matter of course, deny the possibility of miracles; but to one who believes in a personal God, who in his wisdom may see fit to interfere with the ordinary processes of nature, miracles are not impossible, nor are they incredible.
  5. Well, that is an easy question to answer! God literally spoke the universe into existence.
  6. Eight


    A quantum physicist commented that it might be proven that the entire universe is made from just one particle that is somehow used everywhere simultaneously... so God didn't even waste material!!
  7. stu


    ....something fact never partners up with.
  8. Miracles by any definition would be beyond the understanding of human beings, if they existed esp. primitive witnesses who read
    by fire light and reasoned with a far flung candor that would be laughable by the standards of today for rigor. Of the explanations that maintain their authority as metaphor, I can
    appreciate them the way I do eastern religious parables that
    find commonalities with some of the as yet more inexplicable observed phenomena in quantum physics particle behaviors overtures to the animistic notion of oneness as the central
    organizing principle of existence.

    Truth seeking has historically
    been snake oiled by popes to kool aid making self professed messiahs to televangelists in 2 thousand dollar suits filling
    stadiums with the faithful. It should remain in the personal realm
    where it stands the least chance of snowballing any charisma it might gather into feeding somebodies personal power trip and emptying grandmas estate.
  9. The difference between Athiests and Theists on this issue:

    -The Bible answered the question of the beginning of the universe once and for all.
    -Scientific theories continue to be disproven and adjusted to new hard data. The complete answer has not been entirely explained yet.
  10. Quick question,

    What if you (that would be me) really don't give a fuck either way?

    I don't care nor do I follow religion/spirituality/moralistic philosophies.

    I'm here now, later I won't be.

    I see a bunch of mammals that live and die during my lifetime and nothing ever changes that.

    So the universe is large and we are on a small rock in a small solar system in a galaxy among an infinite amount of galaxies.

    Everyday I think about eating and how many hot young chicks I would like to fuck and the next good trade that will put money in my pocket.

    I guess I am a nihilistic sadist at heart.

    Family genetics are very good so I'll be an old prick in 25 years; big fun.


    p.s. I do recall reading a great book earlier in life called 'The Tao of Physics.'

    Good stuff. I am not as eloquent as OmegaPoint but this book was intriguing macro to micro stuff.
    #10     May 31, 2011