Asian Financial Crisis Part 2: China's Debt Bomb

Discussion in 'Economics' started by schizo, Jan 7, 2024.

  1. You trust Chinese statistics? Wow. Haven't you learned from the UDSSR that statistics in communist countries can't be trusted? Official victim numbers of the Chernobyl incident are below 50 up until today for a reason. Or would you trust official Covid numbers of China?


    A correction is an understatement, China will not come back from this one for decades. Imploding is just the right word.
     
    #31     Jan 10, 2024
  2. piezoe

    piezoe

    There seems some confusion here with what I posted. I was referring to two possibilities. Let me elaborate these: One possibility is that the former President, who has been indicted on 91 felony counts, and is attempting to to avoid prosecution by running for president again, will be found guilty and go to prison either before or after voters reject him in November. The other possibility is that he will not be convicted before the election and somehow manages to get himself elected this November. In this case, if one is to believe his rhetoric, and he does what he says he will do, the nation will be transformed during a second Trump Presidency into a one-party, de facto autocracy. And too, there are still other less likely possibilities. Regardless, what eventually happens will, despite Donald Trump's ridiculous protestations and projections of his own crimes onto others, have only very superficially anything to do with politics and instead everything to do with whether or not Trump succeeds in avoiding the rule of law being applied to himself.

    Your knowledge of the Nixon era does not agree with my first hand knowledge and observations of that 1970s period in U.S. history. (I was in my early 30s then working at the University of California's Los Alamos Laboratory, and I remember the Watergate era as clearly as though it were yesterday.)

    The Watergate affair was very different from what is happening today. There was no insurrection and no chaos. Nixon did not try to pull off a bloody and violent coup. Government processes remained orderly and adult-like. There was no shouting and name calling. Both sides respected the rule of law --- though President Nixon did have his on peculiar and self-serving interpretation of Presidential power. President Nixon, who knew nothing of the Watergate escapade in advance, tried to coverup the involvement of his administration. It was his attempted cover-up that got him in trouble with both political parties. The Republicans at first tried to disassociate the Watergate break-in with anything going on in the White House. This became increasingly difficult after John Dean, a young Republican attorney in Nixon's administration, told the truth about Nixon's involvement in the cover-up and incriminated himself in the process. (He later did time for his role and ended up as somewhat of a national hero.) It was discovered that tapes of conversations in the Oval Office existed. Nixon tried to claim executive privilege over the tapes. Leon Jaworski, the Independent Counsel appointed by the DOJ, brought Nixon's claim of privilege to the Court. The Supreme Court quickly ruled unanimously that executive privilege could not be asserted to cover-up potential crimes, and the tapes would therefore have to be released to the bipartisan Senate committee investigating the Watergate break in. Once the tapes were reviewed it became clear that Nixon had committed felonies. Republican friends went to Nixon and told him that he was going to be both impeached and convicted by a two-thirds majority in the Senate consisting of both Democrats and Republicans. It is then that Nixon resigned, Gerry Ford became President and subsequently pardoned Nixon, a move that was widely credited with costing Ford the Presidency when he later ran on his own. (Spiro Agnew, Nixon's original V.P., had only months before resigned over having been caught taking kickbacks in Maryland. As a result, Gerry Ford had replaced Agnew as V.P. by application of the 25th Amendment. So at the time of Nixon's resignation Ford was ready to assume the Presidency.)

    There are few similarities between Watergate and what is in progress in the country right now as I write this is. In Nixon's case, it took an investigation to uncover his crimes, and after he was found out, he stopped lying and quickly vacated the Oval Office.. In Donald Trump's case, however, he has done his law breaking largely in plain sight of millions of Americans, and even after thorough investigation he continues to lie and pretend he has done nothing wrong. Millions of his own followers who obviously know he's lying, because they have witnessed his actions and words with their own eyes and ears and can not, therefore, escape the terrible inconsistency between what Trump does and what he says. Even so, his foolish followers still make excuses for him and don't seem to care that he is lying, nor do they seem to care that the existence of our democratic republic is threatened by him. This is a far cry from how members of Nixon's own party behaved when they learned he had participated in the cover-up of his administration's involvement in Watergate.

    The Nixon affair and what is happening today have few parallels. There was little to no talk of an existential threat to the U.S. Democracy in Nixon's time, and the concepts of alternative facts, truthiness and fake electors had not occurred to anyone. So far as anyone knows, there was no involvement of a foreign country in U.S. domestic politics in Nixon time. It was the finding by The Watergate Committee and Jaworski that the President had committed felonies that ended Nixon's political career. He was either going to resign or be impeached and convicted. Those were his choices. Once his crimes were exposed, he did not resist the transfer of power to Ford, nor did he steal stacks of top secrete documents and claim he had declassified them. He did not launch an endless stream of meritless childish appeals, and he certainly did not insult and invent silly, childish names for the Judges that stood between him and the White House. He showed respect for Congress and the law, and he did not claim that the DOJ was being weaponized by the Democrats against him. Those were very different times not to be compared with the existential threat that confronts us all today.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2024
    #32     Jan 10, 2024
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  3. piezoe

    piezoe

    Well I won't be here decades from now to point out how wrong you were. I don't necessarily trust China's numbers entirely, but neither do I distrust them entirely. And you shouldn't necessarily assume the things you do about the Chinese economy. We certainly have every reason to respect their rapid growth in living standards and GDP. Everyone can directly witness that! There is no question that it is simply amazing. Then too, we can trust our own figures for the amount of U.S. debt they hold because their dollar foreign exchange accounts are held in the U.S. We know in detail who owns what U.S. bonds. Central banks of the major powers cooperate and there is far more transparency here than you might think. Forget about communist this and communist that, that's American propaganda we have all grown up with. We are all contaminated by it. There are no pure communist economies left among the major powers. They are all mixed economies, even the Middle Eastern Monarchies and the Autocracies and mixed. So yes we can't be certain about the accuracy of every one of their figures, but many, maybe nearly all, of those figures are verifiable either directly or indirectly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2024
    #33     Jan 10, 2024
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  4. mervyn

    mervyn

    not sure when the bidens came onshore but pretty sure lot of irish folks came because of great famine. shits happened throughout, michael jackson and lionel richie wrote a song in the 80s in response to africa famine. any climate changes everyone will eat dirt.

    the point of being a civiliation is that it won't be controlled by outside influences, it moves with its own speed. empires and dynasties rise and fall, never last longer than few hundred years. if you were born a hundred years ago, you probably would want to send your kids to be educated in britain rather than in america.

    and fast forward, probably 50 years from now white will not be the majority race, the question is would that change the political idealogy, most poeple just don't know.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...-the-u-s-is-neither-good-nor-bad-for-society/
     
    #34     Jan 10, 2024
    piezoe likes this.
  5. mervyn

    mervyn

    because we ended the conscription and population were insulated to the war overseas but we fight no less wars since. if conscription is reinstated, you bet the chaos will be on every steet.


    Pro-Palestinian protesters block NYC bridges and tunnel to demand ceasefire in Gaza


    300+ pro-Palestinian protesters arrested after simultaneously blocking traffic on NYC bridges, tunnels

     
    #35     Jan 10, 2024
  6. Specterx

    Specterx

    Been hearing about China's debt bomb for over 15 years now. Most likely what will happen this time around will be the same that happened all the previous times, which is to say, nothing.

    Debt is just a legal contract, and the CCP doesn't give a f*ck about contracts. This isn't so great from the standpoint of generating shareholder returns to capital, but the CCP doesn't care about that either.
     
    #36     Jan 10, 2024
  7. schizo

    schizo

    Well, the thing is the West has been supportive of "Made in China" back then. Not sure that's the case now.
     
    #37     Jan 10, 2024
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  8. So you openly admit, the financial security/stability is no longer given for investors and individuals? What does that tell you about the future of the Chinese economy? When Brexit taught me one thing it is uncertainty makes capital flee faster than you can blink.
     
    #38     Jan 10, 2024
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  9. Specterx

    Specterx

    Have you seen a chart of FXI recently? Down in USD terms from nearly 20 years ago, to say nothing of relative perf vs US stocks.

    The crash has already happened.
     
    #39     Jan 10, 2024
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  10. mervyn

    mervyn

    Most folks don’t get it. Shanghai Composite SSE is capital-weighted all A shares index, it is the entire shanghai stock exchange. The direct comparison is not SPX but NYSE composite. Even though the stock index looks very sloppy,

    But in the same period almost everyone put their savings into real estate market hence the homeownership is well above 90%, compared to ours at 65%. They want a roof over their head, rather than “fake” numbers on the screen.

    I think once they are covered in terms of basic needs, the next generation will have the luxury to pursue something more extrinsic.
     
    #40     Jan 10, 2024