this may not make much sense, but i'm just going to speak my mind........ i truly believe the markets are like chaos theory. the bottom line here is, uptrends will occur, downtrends will occur, sideways will occur. these movements will be happening at all different timeframes and they can (and probably do) differ from eachother at different timeframes. we have no idea when a trend is going to start or end..and we also have no idea when sideways movement will start or end. all we know is that these movements will happen. an indicator is not going to predict which movement will occur when. all you can do is take a position and DEAL with what ever happens. therefore, as many have said, price is really the only thing that matters. an indicator is just another way of looking at price or a delayed version of it. this brings me to my next point. do we need indicators and can you trade with them or without them. i say yes to both. HOWEVER, i'm starting to believe the following......... to trade all you need is price. YES, you CAN trade with other indicators, but all you're really doing is making it more complicated. you can either trade with the simple price indicator or you can trade off complicated indicators which are really just price or delayed price. so, this is why people are arguing over indicators. some say they're profitable and they don't use them. some say they're profitable and they do use them. both can be true, but my conclusion is that if you're trading with any indicator other than price, you are just making trading more complicated than it needs to be...but yes, you can still do it... but why would you?????? WHAT ARE EVERYONE'S THOUGHTS???????