Quote from jamis359: Thank you for correcting yourself. Your original assertion: The founding fathers were largely Universalists and Deists -- they believed in a single God and rejected the Trinity. then your next post If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding Fathers were not Christians at all... --------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists... John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian... George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism... Tom Paine... These are called "examples" not proof that the founding fathers (of which there were many) were largely deists as opposed to christians The historical record is strong and clear that many of the Founding Fathers were not Christian. See "Our Godless Constitution" http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen One person's article is hardly exhaustive and convincing proof...
How exactly is it a contradiction that the Founding Fathers were "largely" deists and universalists and that "some" of the Founding Fathers were not Christians at all? II don't expect you to answer, because when it comes to answering tough questions, you rather duck and cover than actually venture a guess. As for evidence, there is ample evidence from the WRITINGS of the Founding Fathers that most did not believe in a personal God, or in the Incarnation, or in the Resurrection. They were NOT Christians, and this nation was NOT founded in 1776 as a Christian nation Its principal heritage was the Enlightenment, not historic Christianity.
I really think you must re learn history if you do not believe that enlightened Christianity was not the foundation of this country. I agree locke and rousseau's social contract ideals were the basis of the Constitution. These ideas came out of the Protestant Reformation. In terms of Religion Luther argued that every man should be an agent for himself. He can read the bible and make his own judgments. He does not need the church for salvation. For his reformation to take place he and his followers also had to rebel against monarchs and rulers at every level. It was the idea of self determination that caused the need for a country like the U.S and its constitution. If you don't believe me read this. n The Reasonableness of Christianity, Locke's most radical and polemical work, he wrote as a "minimalist" and pleaded in good conscience as a believing Christian, a rational defender of revelation, and a loyal Anglican that the Church of England should reform itself in order to attract members from the Dissenters. How? Locke advocated that it should reject its hierarchical structure and the authority of its bishops, abandon its cannon law and theology, its creed and sacraments, its liturgy, all belief in mysteries and miracles, all external discipline, the Thirty-nine Articles and Book of Common Prayer, all its religious customs and traditions - in short, its entire historical inheritance - as so many superstitions and "prejudices," in favor of one requirement for membership and salvation - to acknowledge that Christ is the Messiah. In the last section of his Essay, Locke stated the central principle of deism: "Reason must be our last judge and guide in everything."[30] http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/locke_reason.htm Note that Locke and the other deists were Christians in their ideals in many senses. They did mostly believe in the God of the bible. And the very large majority of founders were Christians who believed in the Trinity. When they set up the Constitution and America that were fulfilling the ideals of the Protestant Reformation to let every man have a right to decide for himself on what he should believe. But at the time they did not tell the states they could not support religion. The establishment clause was introduced because states like Virginia had state Denominations. They did not wish to have the Federal Govt trump the states. (read your history). Because individuals had a right to self determination - the social contract was born. That Christians are not perfect does not mean its ideal did not serve as the foundation of all the freedoms in the west. if you do not understand that you do not know history.
Luther and his followers "had to rebel against monarchs and rulers at every level." This is absurd. Luther condemned the Peasants' rebellion of 1525, saying that Germany's leaders should "smite" and "stab" them, if need be in order to stop the rebellion. Moreover, Luther probably would not have survived the 1520's if not for the the support of certain German political rulers (remember, if you can, that Luther was declared a renegade when he did not recant at the Diet of Worms). Throughout most of his life Luther actively supported Romans 13 and its support of political rulers. Later in life Luther did allow for rebellion, but only certain individuals--inferior magistrates--could do so, and only because he feared that Charles V might succeed in stamping out Protestantism. I have published articles in peer-reviewed journals on the history of biblical interpretation and on the history of Christianity. I am afraid YOU are the one who does not know history. The Bible in no way is a source of democratic principles. Absolute monarchy, yes; but certainly not democracy.
God men born of a virgin on the 25th of December who die and are ressurected are a dime a dozen thousands of years before Jesus was born.. It was hardly a new or unique mythology Absolutely infantile to take it literally