Discussion in 'Professional Trading' started by Esq Esq Esq, Dec 31, 2008.

  1. I don't know a better forum to post it but mods feel free to move this.

    a friend and I were debating an apprenticeship scenario. We all know that profitable trades will rarely take on trainees b/c there is not benefit to the prof trader. He will teach the guy, make a small vig in the beginning, and when the guy gets hot he leaves for a better deal, new firm, bla bla. We've been around forever and this is not under debate.
    So what do you do?

    So instead of the old Jr Trader model we are thinking about an Apprenticeship model.

    Trader becomes an apprentice for a prof trader and learns for the pro. HE DOES NOT PUT UP MONEY, nor does he actually trade. But he performs something useful in return (backtesting, research, blowjobs). the Pro trader gets some labor in return for the knowledge. The newbie learns from pro w/o a commission commitment/capital, bla bla but trades his labor. This takes out confilct of interest from the trainer. There are no commission $ made, no expectations of the guy to be loyal, just barter of knowledge for labor.

    what do you guys think
  2. CBuster


    interesting idea.

    whilst the potential benefits to the apprentice are clear (although sounds a bit like unpaid labour? how long could the apprentice afford to do this for?), i still struggle to see the benefit to the pro-trader of taking on the apprentice unless they come with a specific skill set. eg - if the pro has some ideas to backtest but not the time / skills to test them, then an apprentice with back-testing / programming skills might be useful.

    even in the above scenario, if the idea to be tested were really interesting, i would not want an apprentice or anyone else except my long-term trading partners to know about it. else they could do the test, find it works, and bugger off with my strategy.

    so the only use i can really see for an apprentice (for me) would be:
    a) if I had some non-sensitive programming that needed doing but I lacked the skill or time and the apprentice was an IT whizz
    b) if I had mountains of regular/daily grunt work that the apprentice would undertake

    knowing how much effort it takes to train a newbie, having some grunt work done for free seems like a poor payoff. i'd rather pay some young guy a small wage to do it for me and avoid the risk of someone stealing my strategies.
  3. zdreg


    a magician does not reveal his tricks. when he does the response is that was so simple.

    only a father is likely to pass on his knowledge to his child.
  4. I'll pass on the blowjobs coming from a male apprentice. To each his own I guess.
  5. nysestocks

    nysestocks Guest

    A very wise statement indeed! Traders should read this many times until they understand the real meaning of what you have wrote.

    I try to keep away from posting on forums, for obvious reasons, but at times a reply is warranted. I will not, however, be drawn into silly time wasting discussion by some traders (general statement).

    This reply is general, and not directed at the author.

    Knowledge on its own is of limited value. You can tell 100 people the same thing and most will not understand what it is you are trying to tell them. This is normal, and one should not expect any different when dealing with people. Also, this is magnified when applied to the WWW, for obvious reasons.

    When people seek knowledge, they usually seek it for the wrong reasons. This is not their own fault, as they can only relate to the information that has been presented to them for consideration.

    Logical approaches, like with any good business approach, would be to do some research and gather as many facts and figures as possible. This is the hard part, as the majority of traders are not successful, will not admit same, and just continue to add to the mysterious "business" of trading.

    Trading is a loser’s game. Many will read this and take it up wrong. For those who read it, and understand the true meaning of it, their apprenticeship will indeed be very short. The experiences (not knowledge) they will require in order to become consistent profitable traders will come so quickly, they will be amazed at how little they thought they knew about trading (after reading the many published “writings” on the subject).

    There are no experts in the trading arena, even though some like to think they are so, and one does not need to be an expert in order to succeed in the hard business of trading. One does, however, need to know several key things that will enable them to become successful, and Leverage v/s Risk is one of these important things, or if you want it to sound like the many write, an important “Rule”.

    You can do a simple web search and find enough material written by so called “experts” that it will keep you going around in circles for many years. It may be wise, for a “I am going to be a full time trader” person, to remember one important thing!

    The majority of what is written about trading is done so to make money from the selling of information – read it all with a pinch of salt, for, common sense will tell you, if it is so accurate, and a true reflection of what is required in order to become successful in the business, then why are there so few successful!

    It is a no brainer really.

    Books make money by been published and sold, and successful Traders make money by trading the markets of their choice, based on experience gained from live trading with many losing, and winning, trades.

    Any trader who does not admit to being a good loser, well, is not a real trader IMHO.

    No doubt there will be many who will not agree with me, but I have already given you my simple and logical explanations as to what I think about trading, so if you are to reply with a different outlook, then please try and keep a similar tone, so at the very least the “apprentices” can make an informed decision based on facts.

  6. I do not disagree but you are arguing a different point.

    I believe that for a novice trader/wannabe it can be very very benefitial to sit next to/work along side a profitable trader (or a group of those).

    Just to see how the mind analyzes the trading situations is in my option worth it.

    I've taught and /or influenced already 100s of traders and, while not all of them made it, many did.


    also (not related to this poster)... you guys seem to think there is some "holy" STRATEGY that Makes money and you must guard it with your life and never give up.

    Or its a set of magician's tricks that you can learn only through the magician's alliance....

    The truth is, most profitable traders know, that proftaible trading comes from a specific way of analyzing information. The decisions made are based on proper analysis, that's is all.
    It can be technical (Although there are very FEW profitable pure technical traders!), valuation based, relative value based, arb based, etc etc etc.

    I do not claim to know all of it, and would only welcome chatting with profitable traders to get some insight--maybe it will help me fit the great jigsaw puzzle trading really is.


    Hiring someone to do this work may not be good enough (we have lots of hired help)- because of little ambition/ and low initiative.
    A true apprentice willing to learn will work day and get to profitability. And that's the kind of commitment we were thinking about.


    blowjobs were a joke.
  7. AndrewL


    You should only work for someone else for a few months to 1 year max to learn the trade. By then you should be able to earn more on your own. I used to be a prop poker player for a casino. They would pay me to play at certain tables in the middle of the night. I quit after six months and did well enough playing online to become a full time investor. Meanwhile, a lot of the other props there who were better players than me weren't brave enough to quit and are probably still there grinding out a living.
  8. nysestocks

    nysestocks Guest

    Yes, you are of course correct when you say that it can be beneficial for a new trader to learn from others with experience, and no one can dispute that fact.

    However, as I have already mentioned, my opinion is that there are no experts in the trading game, even though many like to think that they are so!

    "An expert can be, by virtue of training, education, profession, publication or experience, believed to have special knowledge of a subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially (and legally) rely upon the individual's opinion. Historically, an expert was referred to as a sage. The individual was usually a profound philosopher distinguished for wisdom and sound judgment."

    If someone was an "expert" trader, then they would never have a losing trade, as all of their combined experiences as per above, should make it possible.

    As we all know, a market can change direction at any moment, and to think that one can "call" most of those changes, well, is imho, stupidity to the highest degree.

    But, to make money from trading, one does not have to be an expert, one just needs to have some basic trading skills, and a lot of common sense.

    I know some wealthy traders that have made vast amounts of money, and at times have lost even more - are they "experts"?

    To me they are far from experts, but they are well capitalized individuals that can afford to gamble a lot of money, yes, I did say gamble, as all trading is gambling.

    The average standard “punter" is under capitalized, grossly misinformed, and exposed to so many so called "experts", is it no wonder common sense goes out the window!

    It is a subject that can be debated for days on end, but in relation to your other comment regarding magicians, well, it is possible that there are some techniques that can yield better returns than others, and this is also a fact that has been proven by many, so, in that respect, yes, it can be very beneficial for the new trader to "get to know" the right people, but common sense must always prevail, and if the new trader lets him/her self, be inspired for the wrong reasons, then they will not find themselves getting very far at all, in fact, they might never make any real progress, a situation that the majority find themselves in.

    I was an "apprentice" once, and it took me 4 years to qualify as a tradesman, and then another 20 years to realize that I was just wasting my time and making more money for other people, when I could be making more money for myself!

    You can not teach a person experience, no matter how hard you try, but you can let people know about your own experiences so that they can compare to other "facts and figures".

    Trading is a loser's game, but being a loser in itself is of no real value to anyone, one needs to know 1) when to lose, 2) when not to lose, and more importantly, 3) not to ever lose when you are winning! It is amazing how many can never master 3)!!
  9. nysestocks

    nysestocks Guest

    It might be said that you saw an opportunity that others did not see.

    You can show 100 people the same thing of value, and the majority will not see any value, in fact, it is the complete opposite, they will see absolutely "no value" in what they have been shown.

    This is human nature and has a lot to do with the person's upbringing, which is where the first lessons in experience start.

    Some people are very strong willed, and can make rapid changes to their circumstances when required. These people usually do well at trading, as they tend to be not as emotionally attached to their ideas and ideals as others.

    By far, the biggest obstacle to success in trading is the reflection in the mirror!

    I wish you every success in your trading career and have no doubt that you will be a success, as you have a major advantage over many, coming from a gambling profession.