777 - why I switched to stricly just futures trading....no specialist's and very little slippage.... J-
Don, I've almost never replied to anything you've said, but this one is absurd. I've canceled offers in one stock that were outside the market, and the specialist held my order for over a minute, made multiple prints, then snatched my offer (pending to be canceled) while he ripped the stock up 1/2 a pt or so. This happened more than once in December (same stock). So many other crazy things have happened as well, the simple fact is that some of these guys are str8 crooks!!! They have a license to steal!
Let's face it boys, they are doing to you what you're trying to do to them. Less acrimony from the peanut gallery.
Some specialists are crooks. No doubt about it. As far as market orders and NX orders, you have to learn what situations to use them in. A fast moving stock with small bids and offers is where you should use market orders. You can try to limit your way in, but you won't get the print. And by the time you get a limit print, most likely the move will be over. I get screwed by the specialists every day but I also get the better of them. Just roll with the punches and look for other opportunities. No use crying about it. You can always trade the Nasdaq if you want good fills. You have to learn your stocks and find the ones where the specialist won't screw you too much. For example, I'd never trade Goldman Sachs! That specialist will rape you every way imaginable!
Goldman Sachs' specialist = the absolute worst on the street, at least on a day in and day out basis....i can't think of anyone even remotely close to that level off the top of my head.
I have to agree that most of these claims of chicanery by the specialists are overdone. If you've been on the floor and seen the specialists work, it's evident that: 1) Dot executions are often an afterthought to what's going on in the crowd 2) Much of the dot matching is done by specialists assistants, while the specialist worries himself with the floor order/information flow 3) Specialists are doggedly regulated, and screwing people on a few thousands of shares just isn't worth the potential hassle/risk There are certainly some specialists that move their stocks more violently, but I've found that much of that has to do with the liquidity and price of the stock.
interestingly, i had the same situation happen to me before (the example where he held my order for several minutes, spread it up, and printed me there). this time there was no print, at say .66, and he filled me at the equivalent at .80. a couple hours later, i got passed a note saying i got filled at .70 (equivalent to previous example), and they put money in my account!!!!! can you imagine???? having a trade broken in your favor without having to call anybody, and not by an ecn, but by the specialist???? have no idea what happened, but i'm assuming some other firm complained on their customer's behalf (certainly not SLK) and since it did, they definitely should've came back and given me the .66 this time, since there was a print with my share size. yes, some people blame everything under the sun on the specialist, believing they put fake bids on open book and ridiculous stuff like that (no way it's someone just cancelling their order). i am not one of those people, but know when my order is being handled against the rules, or unethically. if you have an understanding of the tape, the crowd, dot, stop, and how market orders are filled, NX, etc, etc, you know when the specialist is manipulating the orders to his advantage, and when there is simply a bigger order trading ahead of you. you would know when the specialist is using 1x1, freezing everything to let orders build up for well over 60-90 seconds etc. maybe you are not be using true tape reading in your trading, or frankly, don't have an understanding of what's going on. perhaps you are using charts, which is fine. and you are definitely not reading the disciplinary actions against specialist firms by NYSE, where they specifically mention the manipulation of the 1x1 rule to eliminate NX, and frozen quotes as i've mentioned. how there are any disciplinary actions with attitudes like yours (it doesn't happen, just deal with it) is beyond me. to say that they wouldn't 'risk their careers' (which they ARE NOT DOING, again check the disciplinary action for the 25k fines and such) to screw a few thousand shares at a time, when there is no checks and balances in the system, is naive. these guys trade the same stock all day long, and must exploit as much money as possible out of the one major stock they trade. if he took my 400 and did that 15-20 times a day, that's a lot of money for anybody. not to mention the 5k (was 9k at one point) that i lost in the trade that triggered this thread.
Don't think anybody was saying it doesn't happen at times. People on the floor are all human. That's why they are regulated. If you have an order that has been truly mishandled, then call and it "must" be corrected. Obviously, with a market order it's pretty hard to make a case.
the order that triggered this thread was not the market order that i spoke of, but a marketable limit order. nor did it cost me 400 either, but 5000. the order that cost me 400 was just to show that SLK will do nothing for you, because of course, they are also a specialist firm. by saying they are human, you are implying that it was an error, not the manipulation and bending, if not breaking the rules to line their own pockets that we are speaking of.
Do to them? I don't have the power to "MAKE THE MARKET"! I can't SPREAD A SPECIALIST DOWN to some crazy levels, and refuse to cancel his stop before I make the print, and then gap it right back up! I can't hold a cancel for a stop that is out of the market, come down to it (cancel already pending), print it and drive it up before he can cover. If I made millions (as these guys do), I'd at least try to play 1/2 way fair! These guys have rules that they aren't following, and therefore they are simple crooks. I am not breaking the rules to get an advantage over anyone else (much less the specialist). Otherwise, I would join an operation like in boiler room or see if I could get some insider information to trade off of. But I would never do either (especially because we would get busted most likely, while the specialist has a license to steal!).