by prop, i mean no capital requirement needed for the trader....firms that trade nasdaq stocks anyone hiring/
AnonTrader, If you are a trader with a proven track record, you will get hired. The problem with prop traders is that most go from firm to firm and lose money. Most prop traders with a good track record stay where they are or have money to put up(capital contribution)at a firm like Bright,Lieber & Weissman, ECHO, Genearic, ETG etc. A very well known firm asked many of their prop traders to resign this year, because they were probably losing money. This is the problem with prop trading. Gene Weissman Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C. gweissman@stocktrade.net
ive only been trading for like 6 months and im at my 3rd firm...the reason being i was a trader in WTC and after 9/11, it took a while to find a firm...time where i couldve been learning to trade...lets just say the firms ive been at havent been too kosher
Not completely true. Firms like Worldco, which is basically the only true "no-capital-necessary" prop firm on the street, cuts traders each quarter regardless of whether they are making money or not. They've been doing this for several years now (even during the good markets) I believe they have experienced only 2 losing days so far this year...in this type of market that is still exceptional. Of course if you go to more of a retail-type trading firm where you put up your own capital, you won't have to worry about getting cut because you're simply losing your own money, not the firm's. Remember, you can always trade for a Bright or Echo after you get canned from a "true" capital backing prop firm because they really don't care about you as a trader...only the capital you bring, which they see as a commission pool in which they will eventually draw from.
Treykool, If you include Stock Market Making Firms, Exchange Specialists, Option Trading firms and upstairs prop trading operations for well know firms like Goldman, Spear Leeds , Bear Stearns & hedge funds there are well over 100 firms in the NYC area alone. These firms are true "prop" firms. These firms do not all cater to daytraders, but they are true prop firms. Obviously , you cannot walk in off the street and trade at these firms. For the Traders that cannot get hired at these firms, several prop firms in the NYC area will hire you strictly as a daytrader. I know several traders who work at these firms and it is a pretty good deal for not putting up any money. If you are a true professional trader and have capital to contribute ,our firm and several others do care if you make money and succeed. It is in our interest to make you succeed. In my experience, the traders with skills would rather keep a high percentage of what they make and contribute capital to a firm. Most successful traders would rather keep all their profits than split their profits with the firm. There are exceptions for the lucky few who have access to Goldman Capital and get a bonus of 10% of their profits(very large profits). For the 99.5% of us, if you are a talented trader, I would rather keep 100% of what I make. Gene Weissman Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C. gweissman@stocktrade.net
Don I know will pipe up here too. Echo , Bright and others don't really care about you as a trader? Where did you get that load of crap? If that was true why would our firm spend a boatload of money to have a Second server running as a backup. They don't ever want to be down to protect our traders. Professional firms would try to get by with the bare minimum instead of having new equipment every few months. There is very little new blood coming into the business lately. If the firm's retention rate is low the firm will soon start losing money. The care heavily that there traders are doing well. I spend countless hours with new traders trying to explain trading to them. I want them to succeed. I know other professional firm managers as well as other Echo managers do the same. Robert
Isn't it simply assumed a professional trading firm has backup servers? Why even brag about that? Perhaps you might want to add that your trading desks come with chairs??? Where did I get that load of crap? Well, me.... My experience with one of the aforementioned firms was as follows: Initial call, they ask me if I can put up 25K regardless of whether or not I have any experience. They then push me to drop a couple thousand for some "seminar" out of state. No "in-house" training. When I asked if there are any additional fees, they explain some sort of monthly technology and desk fee. Furthermore, they couldn't promise me any decent leverage when I start trading (actually was quoted for LESS than your typical 4:1 margin you would be able to get on YOUR OWN). On top of all that, I would have been sitting with a bunch of other newbies. Talk about being treated like a cash cow...Would have been nice if they actually weeded through resumes and hand picked people with potential (as I have a very strong educational AND working background in the industry). At this firm, $$$ was the only thing that seemed to have mattered and they couldn't care less for anything else. That was the impression I got. I'm sorry, but these were my personal observations first hand. Unfortunately, this same formula is being used at various other firms. Perhaps my slight criticism will raise some eyebrows at these firms.
Since Robert asked so nicely for me to dive into this alligator trap, I will. Trading is both a business and a profession. If you "wasted" $250,000 or more on a donut franchise, then paid rent, bought dough, hired employees, and worked your butt off, you might be able to make a living with it. No one is going to guarntee a true businessman anything...all we can offer is opportunity. I understand your feelings to a point, and we have heard them all before....(and I don't know who the heck won't allow traders less than 4:1....even though some new traders shouldn't use more than that)...but the alternative to an "unlimited upside potential" with a very minor downside (you could well lose more than your initial capital, and we would have to eat it, and we have)....is for you to buy an exchange membership, raise a couple of million dollars, try to negotiate with a clearing firm (several firms on this board were unable to do even that with millions behind them)...and then trade. We are offering something of real value to those who aren'l looking for a job, but to people who are looking for a serious opportunity. The "no cash" prop firms are not doing well, and that business model is being cast aside. Try looking at it the situation this way: "Hi, I was fired from xyz as a prop trader because I can't make any money, would you like to let me try it with your money?" Well, we have made some exceptions, we have helped many people get started with little or no money (through our various intern programs and "traders backing traders" program)....and none of this would be available if we simply allowed everyone to come on board to "try trading." Our particular "hybrid" business model has and will continue to work well, and I sincerely hope that anyone who is serious about trading has enough self confidence to put up a little capital (remember, it's just like moving it from one bank to another, it's not being "spent" unless you don't do well). Sorry for getting into a diatribe here, and yet I want everyone to understand that we work pretty hard to keep our traders above the average ....and we need above average people to start with. (PM me people, I really don't want to get this much into it on the public board, regardless of what some of you may think). I did this just to help Mr. Tharp out!!
Hi Don, Thanks for your input. I assume we can both agree that your firm simply caters to a different crowd than the one I belong to. It pretty much comes down to this: Where your firm's entrance requirement is $25k regardless of background (the retail model), I'd rather try to get into a selective firm where the entrance requirement is based more on talent and intellect. I feel such firms provide a more fertile trading atmosphere (generally smarter people with better education). Such firms see that talent and put their confidence in you while putting up the risk. As I am actually looking into one of the "no cash" prop firms at the moment, can you tell me where I can find information on how their businesses are faring? It seems as though you have the advantage of knowing the internal numbers of your competitors to judge whether or not they are doing well. I am simply concerned. Or are you simply publically bashing those type of firms in favor of your own without any solid proof? Thanks.