Another realistic question when starting out

Discussion in 'Professional Trading' started by rimshaker, Sep 24, 2005.

  1. Last time I asked about health/life insurance. That's easier to manage since insurance companies dont really care about your job status as long as you can pay their monthly premiums, period.

    But what about things like renting, bank loans, credit card applications, etc. Things that actually ask you about your job and income. For example, apartments want proof of income and usually require your most recent pay stub statements. What do I tell them then? "I have no conventional job but I have a big bank account and trade in the markets for a living?" That usually won't cut it. Even if they consider it they'll start asking for much more personal stuff like bank balances and how much is in your brokerage accounts. That's too private IMO. God knows what'll happen if I try to apply for a bank loan and tell them I have no job other than trading.

    To me, it seems that the hardest part of becoming totally independent and trade for a career is not the funding, or the money, or the trading techniques, or the many other subjects people post here in these forums. Those are obvious questions. The hardest part for me to figure out is how to take care of these seemingly simple things that require you to show you have a conventional job with a steady conventional income..... which we all know, trading is anything but!
  2. tax returns.
  3. Odgnut


    The easy answer is if you're in need of bank loans or owe a ton of money on your credit cards you shouldn't even consider trading. Trading is a stressful enough endeavor without having to worry about losing money that you do not have or cannot afford to lose.

    Anyone starting out trading and expecting to make enough money to live on let alone pay of big debts is deluded. It doesn't even have anything to do with your intelligence is psychological warfare at it's worst...and only from experience and learning about and later figuring out how to conquer your personal demons, can you finally think about making a living from trading.

    The odds are so stacked against most traders being able to last very long doing this; if you're going to even attempt it, you need to start out right. Which means...building up a big enough stake (which is different for everyone depending on their goals and how they trade), having as little stress as possible (support from family/friends...little or no debt), and having enough to live on for at least 1-2 years until you start being consistent enough to be able to depend on your trading for added income.

    As for living arrangements...if you really think you are cut out for need to make some sacrifices at the beginning. Move in with family/friends until you start making money. And if you absolutely don't know anyone that will let you move in with will take bank statements as proof that you have sufficient funds to pay your rent if you tell them you are self employed. Just take a black magic marker and mark out everything (account numbers, individual transactions, etc.) and leave your name and the balance in your account. I've done it in the past and had no problem.

    Good luck.
  4. You're really putting the cart before the horse, AGAIN!
    How can you even assume you're gonna make any money since it sounds like you haven't even started trading?

    Now, if you *were* trading AND were in the minority of lucky people out there to actually turn a profit, then the other peripheral stuff you ask about are a piece of cake. You can even set up a trading 'business' and classify youself as the CEO or janitor of that business where you pay yourself a salary and would therefore have NO problemo with dealing with potential creditors.

    But as I've said BEFORE, 1st you have to make consistent profit in the market and that's a LOT harder than most schmucks out there think.

  5. Yes, I understsand what you're saying. No one should even consider trading unless they have a solid foundation. For the record, I think I've built a pretty darn good one over the last few years since graduating as an engineer. I've been trading since '99 (learned the hardest lessons early thank goodness) and been trading options for a few years now. But I'm a realist, i have no visions of being an instant millionaire or raking in six-figure profits year in and year out. Only newbies do that and set themselves up for disappointment.

    Trading for a living is actually that. Grinding it out week after week, month after month, year after year. Doesn't sound glamorous, but it's the independence you're after (at least for me). You bet it's psychological warfare... the irony is.. it's against yourself, not so much against others. Aim to hit singles and doubles, not triples and homers. It's not that i'm not ambitious, it's just being realistic. And if those 10-baggers and 50-baggers do come your way, just feel lucky, not invincible.
  6. risktaker,

    Sorry, maybe I should've beeen more clear about myself. I'm a new member here and am just trying to get a feel for the audience before i start getting more personal.

    But yes.... I HAVE been trading..... I HAVE been making profits (no such thing as consistent in trading though)..... I HAVE a large enough account to live off of...... i have lost everything once before and have recovered. I'll be the first one always to admit that I have more losing trades than I do winning trades. Schmucks automatically dismiss me as a loser, but we all should know by now to read deeper into that.
  7. If you want to buy a house or get credit for a car then do before
    you quit your conventional job, otherwise i see little point in worrying about loans and credit cards if you have lots of cash in the bank like you claim you have.
  8. re: consistency, I've had my accountant write a letter which stated average income over past X years to smooth things out if necessary.

    However, just showing a certain amount of cash in your bank or trading account did not make any difference when I was applying for apartments.
  9. There are 2 sides to the original question,

    1. If you are considering to get a bank loan to start trading, then my advice is DON'T!

    2. If you are worrying about a career in trading will get you in trouble to get bank loans (mortgage) and say renting a place even though you can trade profitably, then you've come to the right place :)

    In general, from my experience, as long as you can show the banker that you are a profitable trader for a few years (i.e. your tax return) and an income comparable to good paying jobs, aside from asking a few "tough" questions, you will have no problem getting the mortgage you need for a house, etc.

    Same thing for landlord, car dealer, etc.

    Well, many of these people will even ask for tips on which stock to buy :)