zdreg, I know what you mean, people get hot when it involves any argument, and this is one of the reasons why people lose in the markets coz they argue with the markets what I wanted to say is that his questions are legit and could have simply been answered calmly and the kid stated clearly that he is asking coz he wanted to learn. I am not here to defend or attack any of the participants, just wanted to clear the air Best Regards, afarouk
Most prop traders who hang up their gloves are not big swingers who put on multi-million dollar positions and one day just blow up. I've been in the business from 1999-2004 and most guys just get so caught up in the trading dream. Magazines like Trader Monthly (just a glorified Robb Report) just reinforce it. These guys made a few thousand a month, lose it the next month, so on and so forth, but resolutely hang on to the "dream." They are in denial and believe that the next month they'll turn the corner. They hear stories and see examples of a few experienced traders who hit the occassional home run in trading. They read about the Trader Monthly 100 top earners and put up pictures of Ferraris on their walls. This gives them the tenacity to soldier on. It's a classic gambler's mentality. The market has drastically changed over the past few years. 99% of the scalpers that I knew in the late 90s have either gone on to other careers or tried to launch their own sub-LLCs at various prop firms. But the business model is not ideal since you're really selling a dream as opposed to a viable career. Hence, the "revolving door" of trainees at prop firms. There's just no solid foundation and prop firm owners have to resort to road shows to attract more warm bodies to fill the constant vacancies. Prop trading nowadays is really just multi-level marketing. Only those at the top of the food chain make the serious dough. They make money off of the commission overrides from their trading teams (aka "downstream"). Have you ever heard some of these snake oil presenters? Their primary sales pitch revolves around the "be your own boss" and "attain financial freedom angle." They don't tell you that 95% of you will fail to make a decent living. They don't tell you that your "freedom" will involve you becoming shackled to a computer like a junkie behind a slot machine. Your "equity contribution" becomes an initiation fee and you have to constantly replenish your account to continue playing the game. Your trading "mentor" will whisper sweet encouragements in your ear and tell you you're making some progress. Once you're wiped out, your mentor will shake your hand, wish you good luck and make room for another fresh-faced newbie. The prop game will continue on. The Brights aren't called the Kings of Las Vegas for nothing! If you really want to make a career out of trading and make big money, I believe you have to look for a traditional job at an established broker-dealer or buy side institution or hedge fund and pay your dues. From there you can become an institutional trader or start a hedge fund. Unfortunately, not too many of us have the educational or networking pedigree. Otherwise, trying to make a good living from scalping at a prop firm is going to be an almost insurmountable challenge. Unfortunately, for many people, they have very limited career opportunities to make six-figure incomes and they are easily sucked in to "the dream." These are the same people that buy the Carlton Sheets or Don Lapre money making systems. Let's face it, get rich quick schemes are a multi-billion dollar business. Prop trading firms are capitalizing on this market, albeit indirectly. For me, it took about five years to realize that the way for a newbie to make good money out of today's stock market is just good old fashioned value investing. Buy and hold or sell and hold. CANSLIM strategies are tried and true and will make money in the long run. The most successful equity hedge funds understand this. You don't have to trade tens of thousands of shares per day to make money. Of course, prop firms don't want to hear this since their mandate in life is to make you pay commissions, commissions and more commissions. I hate to sound like a disgruntled trader trying to spread sour grapes but I'm just sharing my experiences. Some of you will flame me but maybe some will become a little more enlightened. Peace out.
no intention to flame u nor the OP but how's that different from ANY other biz?? ok maybe not accounting but how about acting, F1-pilot and another couple dozen dream-type professions?? WHAT if anything did we learn from the OP's sob story, other than, he's not good enough at it therefore time to look for sthg else???? his energies would be better employed refocussing imo, in that many years on the markets he's undoubtedly acquired some valuable experience that may be worthwhile repackaging... now maybe he'd rather do a stint in fashion and i wld totally understand... when i left i-banking years ago i did a stint in modeling & acting, why not?... or perhaps he's just another psy coming up with a fake sob story to test the average ET wanabee trader's psyche and thats why he's only going to go so far in terms of answering questions, legit or not... but who cares really?? anybody thinks the OP is faced with a life-threatening problem??
fortunately there are other ways... nothing's stopping u from marketing your performance if its good enough, and accepting OPM... nothing to do with education & pedigree... just performance... tough but...
Thanks roberk. I wish there was a button to ban certain trolls who can't enter this thread because they don't deserve any information. These trolls just love to start their usual piss-fest and ruin the mood for anyone to share any more.
Just ignore the stupid shit. He's just a depressed 19 year old loser still living at home with mommy. http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69643
My point exactly. Most newbies don't understand that making a great living from prop trading is a "dream-type profession." Their energies would be better served by focusing on a traditional job, or if they are smart and hungry enough, starting their own business.
Nice post, goldenarm. Yeah, there's just so much illusion in this industry. It's a tough game. I think sometimes we all naturally become so focused at chasing a dream that we simply forget to even think about the basics, like if it's even a realistic dream to pursue in the first place. Like anything in life, when we're doing something, we wonder if there is light at the end of the tunnel or if it's really just a dead-end? In trading, we all tend to believe there's not only light at the end but maybe even a fat pot of gold waiting for us, but how many have actually reached that level and were able to sustain their momentum? I actually removed those grand dreams a long time ago, but there was still a more modest dream in me that maybe I could do this forever as a way to support myself. Was I being optimistic or just plain delusional though? The survival rate in prop trading is evidently pretty low. 90% survive the first test and are around to make make money after their first two years. Maybe 95% are still around after five-years. But how many have actually survived for a much longer period like ten years and are still doing quite well? I look around and know that the number is so small that it practically estimates down to zero. This is not a viable career for me. There's no realistic long-term result. Yet somehow we all believe we can beat these odds and do this forever. We all want to believe we're the one, including me at one point. It's important to have drive, determination, hunger, optimism, passion, etc. in life. But I wish I had paid more attention to perspective.
Sucks man. But thanks for sharing your story. That takes some courage. I think you've been thinking what a lot of us have wondered about at some point or another. We've been brainwashed with this glamorous lifestyle of a trader, but thats just not how it is. The dream does really appear to be a fantasy. I look around and don't see too many old guys still cutting it or living the life. Any success seem temporary because they all eventually lose it back. It is like a casino. The longer you stay, the higher chance of losing. Five years is a long time though.