themickey: "Being familiar with OT scripture then weaving a Jesus story afterwards to make it seem Jesus was whom was spoken of." Only this couldn't be the case. Why? Because the idea of God becoming a man and dying for our sins was completely foreign to the Jewish mindset. Those that did foretell of Jesus in the Scriptures likely did not understand much more than what the Holy Spirit was revealing to them for the purpose of writing it in the Scriptures. The Jews were looking for their Messiah, but they did not expect Him to come the way He did and die the way He did. This was “hidden.” Now that Jesus has come, we can look into the Old Testament prophecies and see how they described Jesus. This isn’t sleight of hand stuff, no deck of cards needed or rabbits being pulled out of hats. It is the work of God’s Spirit. It was the work of God’s Spirit to put bits and pieces scattered throughout the Old Testament. It was the work of God to fulfill exactly the prophecies that were fulfilled. Only God could have pulled all of it together. A person couldn’t make these kinds of prophecies happen. Think about it, Jesus had to be born at the time prophesied by Daniel, had to be born in Bethlehem, prophesied by Micah, would heal people’s illnesses, a direct descendant of King David, the God who would come to save them and also open the eyes of the blind and heal the deaf and lame. “Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you.” Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Isaiah 35:4-6 It also took the work of God’s Spirit to open up the disciples’ understanding of all the different prophecies about Jesus, and this came AFTER Jesus rose from the dead. Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself. Luke 24:25-27 BSB The Holy Spirit is able to reveal the truthfulness of the gospels to those who seek Him in the gospels. The Scriptures clearly foretold that One would come who would be a substitute for our sins by dying in our place. Here is just one example: “We all like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:6 There is also the prophecy in Daniel that gave the exact number of years until the Messiah would come. That period turns out to be the same time that Jesus was on the earth. This prophecy also said the Messiah would be cut off but not for himself, which fits nicely with how Jesus was “cut off” (killed) for others. https://jewsforjesus.org/learn/the-messianic-time-table-according-to-daniel-the-prophet/ If Jesus was not of God, then how is it that Jesus unlocked the mystery of Himself in the Old Testament? If Jesus had been just a mere man, then would it really have been likely that he would have gone against the mindset of the Jews of the concept of what was then thought to be blasphemous to have a God-man as well as the need for God to die in our place? Christianity is not a one-man con job. It is not the con job of the Scriptures. It is the work of God.
If anyone wants to stitch up a story, what they do is take some bits which suit, discard the bits which don't suit. The idea of magic playing cards and rabbits out of a hat, humans are very good at illusion. Humans can pull a trick like Uri Geller and it flumoxes the masses for a long time. As you know, the Jews are clever people, like the Chinese, pulling a con job is well within their abilities. But christians have been sold a lemon and will defend it until death. You can't readily steal away dreams of instant riches (eternal life and happiness) easily. Besides, christians love their comfort blanket and the feeling of being special, set apart, chosen, unique, gifted and part of an organization who will accept then no matter what. Humans are complex and love bs.
You see it as a con job and pieces that don't fit together. I see all the pieces fitting together nicely. I guess we can agree that the prophecies did happen, specifically, that before Jesus was born, it was predicted that One would be here the time that He was here and that One would die for the sins of the people. It seems we disagree that Jesus was the fulfillment of those prophesies. Did I get that right?
The point Aussie mouse is trying to make is that back in those times, you got a lot of super bored folks laying around, existing. So here comes this guy who studies the Torah for most of his life, sees all this prophetical shit in the thing, and thinks, "Gee, I can just go and become the one who makes the shit happen!". The timing is right, he gathers his flock, and makes what is prophesied in the old testament become "true". He forged his life to fit the prophecy. The prophecy did not forge his life. You get it?
Unfortunately no, didnt get it right. Just my opinion; the bible is old and tampered with a thousand times, bits added, subtracted, whatever suited the humans who stitched it together. "Oh, we can add this as it suits us, we'll leave this bit out as it doesn't make sense and not suitable".... etc. Remember, humans are fallible and more cunning than a sack full of snakes. Do you think all christians and the church heirachy are lilly white? Everyone in power has ulterior motives. You don't get to the top by being nice and obliging.
It's human nature for foot soldier slaves and dog bodies (that's you and I) to conform. Think of the military, soldiers conform to what they are ordered. No different with church, the parishioners (the army of God) conform, obey, step in line, group think, don't question. You are pawns to the system, manipulated, used. You are entertained and offered promises to continue along the same vein as long as possible, hooked into the church. All revolving around a story book, the bible.
There was a guy in New Zealand who because of opposing beliefs against the resurrection was called a heretic by the church. Christians thought this guy came from the devil, evil, I remember the time, I was a Christian then. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Geering
Let's reflect for a moment on the stupidity of humanity. In Ukraine, young and old Russian soldiers are dying in the thousands, they are sacrificing their young lives, snuffed out, finished! Who are they sacrificing to? Not to Ukraine, that's the enemy. Not to Russia, that country is not threatened. Not to Putin, he's safe in his castle under no threat. Putin send the loyal forces out to be butchered, Putin doesn't give a rats ass about deaths. The Russian soldiers are dying for no reason other than they walk into enemy territory. Christians sacrifice their lives to 'God'. God doesnt need your sacrifice, he doesnt need your prayers or songs or praise. God is big enough to stand on his own, doesnt require your lip service and piety, your fawning, bowing and scraping. Human stupidity. If you want to sing, pray and praise, go for it, but you are not achieving anything other than feel good.
Imagine this in your mind. There is an artist who wishes to create a sculpture / picture / portrait of God. Before starting, artist has an impression of what to create, but just an idea. The artist's name is Christian. He starts building with material at hand, paint, pottery, clay, stones, jewels, metal, scrap, what ever. When finished with the project artist has used 5% of all the material available to create the monument of God that he wished to represent. The crowd gather and marvel in awe at the finished work. Such is the bible, created by a mosaic of scripture, bits taken here and there, but its not 100% of all scripture available, its 5% which suffices to complete the narrative. Its the bits not seen, the other 95% which the spectators are not aware of, they are not aware how this sculpture was created. The crowd bow down and worship God, man made idol, but its not God, its human interpretation of God, but the crowd can't see this, they see this God (the bible) now as their good luck charm, salvation.
The mathematical probability of some random guy fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies is practically zero. Only God could have orchestrated it all. https://empower.global/the-mathematical-probability-that-jesus-is-the-christ/ The reason why prophecy is an indication of the divine authorship of the Scriptures, and hence a testimony to the trustworthiness of the Message of the Scriptures, is because of the minute probability of fulfillment. Anyone can make predictions. Having those prophecies fulfilled is vastly different. In fact, the more statements made about the future, and the more the detail, then the less likely the precise fulfillment will be. For example, what’s the likelihood of a person predicting today the exact city in which the birth of a future leader would take place, well into the 22nd century? This is indeed what the prophet Micah did 700 years before the Messiah. Further, what is the likelihood of predicting the precise manner of death that a new unknown religious leader would experience, a thousand years from now – a manner of death presently unknown, and to remain unknown for hundreds of years? Yet, this is what David did in 1000 B.C. Again, what is the likelihood of predicting the specific date of the appearance of some great future leader, hundreds of years in advance? This is what Daniel did, 530 years before Christ. If one were to conceive 50 specific prophecies about a person in the future, whom one would never meet, just what’s the likelihood that this person will fulfill all 50 of the predictions? How much less would this likelihood be if 25 of these predictions were about what other people would do to him, and were completely beyond his control? For example, how does someone “arrange” to be born in a specific family? How does one “arrange” to be born in a specified city, in which their parents don’t actually live? How does one “arrange” their own death – and specifically by crucifixion, with two others, and then “arrange” to have their executioners gamble for His clothing (John 16;19; Psalms 22:18)? How does one “arrange” to be betrayed in advance? How does one “arrange” to have the executioners carry out the regular practice of breaking the legs of the two victims on either side, but not their own? How does one escape from a grave and appear to people after having been killed? Indeed, it may be possible for someone to fake one or two of the Messianic prophecies, but it would be impossible for any one person to arrange and fulfill all of these prophecies. The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given event will occur. A professor at Westmont College, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students. The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement even among the most skeptical students. However the professor then took their estimates, and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented. For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, the professor and his students determined the average population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same time period. They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000. After examining only eight different prophecies, they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17. To illustrate how large the number 10^17 is (a figure with 17 zeros), the professor gave this illustration: If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten. Suppose that we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They’ll cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up the one silver dollar that has the special mark on it. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would’ve had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time. In financial terms, is there anyone who would not invest in a financial venture if the chance of failure were only one in 10^17? This is the kind of sure investment we’re offered by God for faith in His Messiah. From these figures, the professor concludes the fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the prophecies – the likelihood of mere chance is only one in 10^17. Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would be foolish. But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation, the professor used 48 prophecies (even though he could have used Edersheim’s 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is the incredible number 10^157. How large is 10^157? 10^157 contains 157 zeros! The professor gives an illustration of this number using electrons. Electrons are very small objects. They’re smaller than atoms. It would take 2.5 TIMES 10^15 of them, laid side by side, to make one inch. Even if we counted 250 of these electrons each minute, and counted day and night, it would still take 19 million years just to count a line of electrons one inch long. With this introduction, let’s go back to our chance of one in 10^157. Let’s suppose that we’re taking this number of electrons, marking one, and thoroughly stirring it into the whole mass, then blindfolding a man and letting him try to find the right one. What chance has he of finding the right one? What kind of a pile will this number of electrons make? They make an inconceivably large volume. This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is vastly smaller. Once one goes past one chance 10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that they will ever occur. As the professor concludes, “Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world.”