AMP, how could you?

DarthSidious · May 23, 2020

destriero said:
I think AMP is operationally-sound. There really isn't anyone else in the space that fills that intraday niche. You can run TT, CQG, etc. The problem is that their customer leverage precludes putting any serious money with AMP.

I wouldn't hesitate to trade 10% of my net liq with AMP if I went home flat each day.
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This is 100% right. As long as the client knows what he/she is getting into, and why I trade with AMP

destriero said:
I've opened an account at AMP but have yet to fund it. Seemed sound for gamma-trading my vol-positions in index, but I always carry overnight risk, so it doesn't make sense for me to hedge outside the vol-account.
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AMP doesn't let you be short gamma in options, so not sure how this will work. AFAIK, absolutely no short options allowed. Doesn't make any sense of course, except when you consider that their risk management system probably blows a gasket dealing with short options.

tiddlywinks · May 23, 2020

redart88 said:
You can look at AMP's daily CFTC filings. Since March you will see they have taken a hit with customers accounts in deficit. 3/2 the number was 142,352 on 4/21 902,865. Most likely from all the limit down action in equities and the oil collapse.
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And where exactly do you get access to DAILY fcm data??

The MONTHLY FCM financial report has a several week lag... the March 31, 2020 monthly is the most current and does not include the oil event. Limit down action occurred earlier in Q1. Comparing monthly fcm data does not corroborate your claim.

faltd · May 23, 2020

Just curious, how did you figure out the do-s and don't-s with AMP? Was this discussed during onboarding? Did AMP furnish you with anything in writing about what constitutes "fair usage policy" as defined by the firm? I am still amazed how many in this thread do not seem to have the slightest inkling what their brokers allow and what not. You seem to know, I am just curious how it was communicated to you. Every software company license comes with an EULA. Clients know exactly what is allowed and what not. IB states their policies as well. I am still confused why AMP is beating behind the bush on this?

DarthSidious said:
This is 100% right. As long as the client knows what he/she is getting into, and why I trade with AMP

AMP doesn't let you be short gamma in options, so not sure how this will work. AFAIK, absolutely no short options allowed. Doesn't make any sense of course, except when you consider that their risk management system probably blows a gasket dealing with short options.
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destriero · May 23, 2020

redart88 said:
You can look at AMP's daily CFTC filings. Since March you will see they have taken a hit with customers accounts in deficit. 3/2 the number was 142,352 on 4/21 902,865. Most likely from all the limit down action in equities and the oil collapse.
More...

DarthSidious said:
This is 100% right. As long as the client knows what he/she is getting into, and why I trade with AMP

AMP doesn't let you be short gamma in options, so not sure how this will work. AFAIK, absolutely no short options allowed. Doesn't make any sense of course, except when you consider that their risk management system probably blows a gasket dealing with short options.
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No, I meant gamma-trade my deltas via index futures.

NQurious · May 23, 2020

destriero said:
The problem is that their customer leverage precludes putting any serious money with AMP.
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That right there, imo

Steve Alexander · May 23, 2020

J.P. said:
I have been an AMP customer for four profitable years. I thought I was good with them. In fact, I thought I was very good with them. I have two accounts, one Roth IRA and one cash, totaling over $3,000,000. I trade hundreds of ES and NQ round-turn day trades a day and keep that amount of cash in my accounts so that I never come close to exceeding margin requirements. Out of nowhere I received an email from Compliance that both accounts were closed. There was no further explanation and it said, "We hope you understand that we do not comment on our decision." Regardless, I called AMP to try to reconcile this obvious misunderstanding. They said I should send an email, which I did. The reply only stated that my accounts were out of their "acceptable risk profile." With no clue as to what, exactly, I did. I wrote back:

"If I am out of your firm’s acceptable risk profile, just tell me what you want and let me fix it. I don’t have to trade the way I trade if it is somehow conflicting with your firm’s systems.

I thought I had a stellar risk profile but I am more than willing to modify my trading or otherwise do what it takes to achieve an acceptable risk profile. Just let me know."

There was no reply.

I'm shocked as AMP and I were having no issues at all. And, most importantly, they won't comment on their decision! AMP, how could you? Not even a hint? I was a no-problem client with no complaints and certainly no hand-holding was needed. Was I trading too much? Was I not trading enough? Were my accounts too large? Were my accounts too small? What else is there? I cannot imagine what the issue might be. But if there is one, why not just tell me as there is likely some mistake and we'll work it out?

If anyone has any insight as to what might be going on here, please let me know. Given my accounts' size, trading activity and unproblematic longevity with AMP, it's just wrong for AMP to abruptly close these accounts without some sort of notice or explanation.

Here's my best guess as to what happened:

Limit orders were on the exchange and were being filled. Take-profit limit orders were also on the exchange and were not (yet) filled. I also had both buy and sell flattening orders that were not at the exchange but were lined up on the platform to be sent in case any of my take-profit orders were not filled within a short period of time (less than five minutes, 10 at the most). These platform orders were filled out and ready to go so that I could send them and be flat very quickly, regardless of the number and type of fills, in order for me to rapidly flatten my positions. If my take-profit exchange orders were filled these platform orders would not be sent. If any exchange take-profit orders were not filled select platform orders would quickly be sent to flatten my positions. That's it.

Just prior to receiving the email that my accounts were closed I had sent a note to AMP that I would sometimes get a platform error message that a pending platform order, that was not sent, was exceeding trading limits, and I asked that any limits be raised as these orders were lined up to be offsetting and would never be at the exchange together and I would not even be close to exceeding any margin requirement at any time. (Regardless, if AMP's systems could not handle this all they had to do is let me know; I don't have to do it this way and I am definitely willing to modify this approach if I am somehow overwhelming AMP's systems. I have never had more than 400 open ES and NQ positions combined, very short-term day trades, in either account at any time and I have always had more than enough free cash in those accounts to cover this margin.)

Apparently, this platform adds up any and all pending untransmitted orders whether they are sent or not, along with all open positions and also any orders that are resting at the exchange against any broker-set limits. These platform orders were just lined up as a safety precaution so that I could selectively and rapidly send them to flatten my positions under various fill scenarios.

AMP did not reply and closed my accounts. But again, I'm just guessing that this was the reason these accounts were closed.

Understand this: During the entire four years that I have been with AMP, at no time and in no way was I EVER close to exceeding any margin requirement on any filled positions. Not even for a moment. Not once; not ever. Nor would I ever. But even if I did, you would think they could, and should, just flatten all positions at the market and then close my accounts for cause. Simple as that.

But I guess I need to find another broker. So, barring a last-minute reconsideration from AMP, if there is any broker out there that can accommodate a trader that always follows any and all rules and policies, let me know as I had not even thought about switching brokers.

This is just wrong. What could I have done differently here? How could AMP expect me to follow some secret trading policy that they refuse to reveal? Do I deserve better than this from AMP? Should reconsideration be granted by AMP?

Advice is appreciated.
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Switch to TradeStation.

redart88 · May 23, 2020

tiddlywinks said:
And where exactly do you get access to DAILY fcm data??

The MONTHLY FCM financial report has a several week lag... the March 31, 2020 monthly is the most current and does not include the oil event. Limit down action occurred earlier in Q1. Comparing monthly fcm data does not corroborate your claim.
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https://www.ampfutures.com/cftc-rule-1-55-reporting/

DarthSidious · May 23, 2020

faltd said:
Just curious, how did you figure out the do-s and don't-s with AMP? Was this discussed during onboarding? Did AMP furnish you with anything in writing about what constitutes "fair usage policy" as defined by the firm? I am still amazed how many in this thread do not seem to have the slightest inkling what their brokers allow and what not. You seem to know, I am just curious how it was communicated to you. Every software company license comes with an EULA. Clients know exactly what is allowed and what not. IB states their policies as well. I am still confused why AMP is beating behind the bush on this?
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Lol. No there was no onboarding. You see the low margins and wonder and draw your own conclusion, basically

redart88 · May 23, 2020

Steve Alexander said:
Switch to TradeStation.
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Hi Steve, do you have any info on how TradeStation weathered the event with oil futures contracts on 4/20? Do you know if they had customers who got trapped along the lines of what happened with Interactive Brokers?

tiddlywinks · May 23, 2020

redart88 said:
https://www.ampfutures.com/cftc-rule-1-55-reporting/
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It's only 9:30am pst, and I already learned something new!

Thank you.

Have a nice Holiday weekend!