American IT companies can not find workers

Discussion in 'Economics' started by misterno, Sep 15, 2011.

  1. trader99

    trader99

    Actually, startups are paying developers/sw engineers right out
    of undergrad about $80-$90K. Those with masters in compsci/EE
    gets around $100k-$120K right out of school. I'm not kidding.
    Check recent articles from NYTimes and elsewhere. With lots of
    perks and benefits.

    BUT, the catch is that kind of opportunities is not available to
    all new grads. If you went to a top compsci(Stanford,MIT,Cal, etc.)
    then yes. Or you had great internships or you have developed a lot
    of stuff on your own, then yes those are typical salary ranges.

    I agree it's a bit misleading to say that there is more jobs than
    talent. There's not enough "right" kind of talent that these startups
    are looking. Perhaps, it's unrealistically high standards(?). Perhaps.

    The $60K you talk about is for people in IT(technical trade schools
    and IT certifications) and not necessarily sw eng.
     
    #11     Sep 15, 2011
  2. IT work is shit, soul destroying, stuck behind a screen working under pressure on a project that has a 90% chance of being binned within six months or a year.
    And you get replaced by Indians at the whim of management who expect you to train them up before they fire you.
    It pays well if you can get into finance or secure a long contract.. but it is not a good lifestyle really.
    I wouldn't advise anyone starting out to go into the IT industry.
     
    #12     Sep 15, 2011
  3. It used to be great...and the pay was good.
    Now it's awful. Word-to-the-wise: stay out....especially in the temp/contract business....the agencies make the money....and you do the work.
    I thought slavery was abolished ?
     
    #13     Sep 15, 2011
  4. i am in contracting business for 18 yrs. Although my pay level is same as in 2000, is still ok.

    outsourcing is popular but not a magic bullet. For starters, dont see it beeing better value for money in most situations.

    What used to be done with 2 people is now with 100 and these 100 jobs targetted. Heh.

    Once hot air goes out, things will change.
     
    #14     Sep 15, 2011
  5. S2007S

    S2007S


    Agree, thats all it is now a days, people creating these online platforms for literally nothing, having millions pumped into them from outside venture capitalists only to sell the company off for hundreds of millions of dollars to the next fool who is stupid enough to buy the company. Thats all it is, thats why we have so many online companies modeling the same thing one after another.
     
    #15     Sep 15, 2011
  6. comp sci / programming used to be hot, not anymore. it's been completely destroyed by outsourcing. what self respecting lazy american would want to compete with 14hr day oversea indians making min wage or immigrants in the US who are willing to take much lower pay and work twice as hard. India is pumping out programmers like we handout bailouts.

    Not to mention the embarrassment of reporting to a manager who speaks broken english and smells like curry. since a lot of indians are mid management now.

    it's a self inflicted destruction of talent that started a decade ago.

    Law and corporate accounting is the way to go nowdays, unless you want to sit through 10 years of school for a md.

    My entire ny team has around 50 people, there are maybe 6 white guys and 4 of them are russian/eastern european. Comp sci and IT is dead for the natives in this country.
     
    #16     Sep 15, 2011
  7. I agree completely. Have been in software engineering field for 25 years now. When I started out, software engineers were respected scientists who were paid well, had decent benefits, and solved worthwhile challenging problems. Management believed in fostering creativity, rewarding innovation, results over process, etc. The field also had a sort of cred, although tainted slightly by the geek/nerd image. Even the contracting world of the 1990s was still very good - savvy people with skills could still bring home a decent check with paid overtime.

    I remember the first hints of the decline to come occurred with the expansion of H1-B programs to deal with the perceived "programmer shortage". This occurred around 1990-1991, during a very bad recession when many tech firms were laying off by the thousands. The funny thing is every time I hear about these perceived "programmer shortages" it is during a recession when people are laying off engineers. It didn't take too long to put 2+2 together and realize that it was a strategy to replace high cost workers with lower cost workers, and basically alter the supply/demand relationship permanently.

    The problem was that in the beginning, the H1-B program was supposed to be used to bring top quality people over here to meet specific niche needs that were hard to fill. Over time, it was abused to a method of importing warm bodies over here, holding them hostage until they could get a green card, and watering down the salaries in the whole industry so that costs could be cut drastically. Instead of the savings being passed onto the customers or investors, it was largely lavished on the executives who had created the "savings". The same thing happened with outsourcing as well. Executives would do stupid things for the long term in order to get short-term results and bonuses.

    A simultaneous effect was that the software engineering role became "de-skilled" to a large degree and it was considered more intelligent for a company to hire more average developers than fewer outstanding ones, even though productivity studies have shown up to a 28/1 productivity factor between top flight developers and the average drones hacking up code. The idea was to avoid developers having negotiating power and to be able to easily replace anybody in the organization without losing anything much.

    In the old days, innovation and creativity was fostered and respected. It was far better to create something excellent even if it ran over cost somewhat or took a little longer to create than first thought. Later on, it became all about pushing whatever crap to market as fast as possible regardless of quality. Most times, it was some near worthless web weenie crap. In fact, with the subscription based pricing it is almost rewarded to have constant "updates" which are usually just bug fixing of stuff that should have worked correctly when a product was released initially.

    The Agile development methology and open source stuff is basically the "Communist model" of development. Reducing everyone to a replaceable widget, facilitating outsourcing and micromanagement. It is no accident that software engineering salaries have basically been cut in half over the past 10 years or so when you take inflation into account. Another side effect is that most companies are no longer offering challenges that appeal to scientist and engineer types.

    The end result is that the intelligent people moved on to other fields, or started their own businesses, or invested or whatever, and the field was abandoned to the hordes of Indians and Asians and the clueless MBA management models. Then we wonder why there is no "innovation"? WTF. You can't force innovation, and the incentives in place (or mostly "not in place") do not support it. In fact, software development is becoming more like a union job in most places than any kind of creative endeavor. Mediocrity is rampant, management is clueless, Dilbert-isms are rife throughout the industry, and the whole industry is now infatuated with this shallow web-weenie vaporware BS which doesn't solve any real problem of significance.

    You want to do software - do it for yourself and use it to trade or further some creative endeavor. Don't bother working for some company that will have you blowing every spare minute of your life toiling away for their bonuses while you get scraps and watch your dollars evaporating into the night with each successive QE program, and then eventually you will be laid off or replaced by an incompetent idiot who can barely speak English.
     
    #17     Sep 15, 2011
  8. S2007S

    S2007S


    Social Media is in a bubble, it seems today everything is connected, how many people really need to know where friends are every second of the day or what they are eating or where they are shopping, how fucking important is that. I cant wait till the facebook hype is over, I think its already peaked!
     
    #18     Sep 15, 2011
  9. i see IT slightly leess glamorous way.

    It is a way to get good pay for younger generation that spends a lot and boost economy and give them sense of achievement. No point giving money indebted,usually older ones as they will just try to pay off debt and no boost to economy.

    Outsurcing IT jobs seems funny as these jobs in first place were invented to boost consumption.

    It is just monopoly money, after all.
     
    #19     Sep 15, 2011
  10. toc

    toc

    9% Unemployment rate and they can't find half way decent programmers? BULLLLL SHITTTTTT! There are lots of decent programmers in the US who would work for $40-50K.

    These companies must be looking for Ivy League Whiz Kids to work for $10/hour. Not Happening!

    :D
     
    #20     Sep 15, 2011