I guess you need to look up the definition of whining. d08 was whining as to why I was being an ass. I simply told him I treat those the same way they treat me. You could do with a German to English dictionary, I think. Yeah, you were all making the same posts twice each time, so I asked if there was a forum bug or a connection problem on my end. Again, a dictionary would do you good. This isn't whining either. Do you even know what the word means? Good, maybe you'll stop saying anything - though I'm sure the sun won't rise before that will happen. Shall we talk about all those times you wanted to take your toys and leave? Now that's a drama queen! "I'll put you on ignore!" "I'm out of here!" "I've had enough" Boohooo...
I think the following paints a much more balanced and fairer picture of the financial situation in Greece. And the numbers very much speak in favor of repayability. Maybe maturities need to be extended, why not by 2-3 additional decades. Greece has to shut up its pilehole about debt and its repayments and it has to start spending time about how to become economically self-sustainable again. Certainly the debt load and certainly current interest payments are not any deterrent to generating growth again. Greece’s debt pile: is it really unsustainable? Ferdinando Giugliano, Economics Correspondent Eurozone governments have already made commitments to further debt relief for Athens, as long as it sticks to reform and austerity. Alexis Tsipras, leader of the leftwing, anti-austerity Syriza, wants to go much further and cut Greece’s debt pile by a third, arguing that the burden is “unsustainable”. But is it? Other eurozone governments, who hold directly or via the European Financial Stability Facility, approximately two-thirds of Athens’ €317bn liabilities, are more sceptical. They argue that Greece has already benefited from two rounds of relief that have significantly cut the burden of the debt. The terms on Greece’s debt pile have become progressively more manageable. The maturity on the bilateral loans provided by eurozone member states in May 2010 has been extended to 2041 and the interest rate cut from between 300 and 400 basis points over the three-month Euribor rate, to just 50. The EFSF loans, whose yield is just one basis point over the average borrowing cost of the EFSF itself, now have an average maturity of more than 30 years. In 2012, the eurozone finance ministers agreed on a grace period of 10 years over which Athens will have to make no principal repayment. As a result of these changes, the average maturity of Greece’s debt is now 16.5 years, double that of Germany and Italy, according to data compiled by Joakim Tiberg, a strategist at UBS. Portugal and Ireland, which also benefit from favourable terms for their own bailout loans, have average maturities of 11 and 12.5 years, respectively. Furthermore, the amount Greece pays each year to service its debts has steadily come down. Zsolt Darvas, a research fellow at Bruegel, a think-tank, has calculated that Greece’s nominal interest spending in 2014 was 4.3 per cent of gross domestic product, less than Italy or Portugal. In fact, this is probably an overestimate of the real interest burden. Greece did not have to pay any interest on its EFSF loans and received back the yield it pays to the European Central Bank and other national central banks, which hold just under one-tenth of its debt. Taking this into account, Mr Darvas calculates that total interest expenditure in 2014 was 2.6 per cent, only marginally above France’s 2.2 per cent. On the basis of these figures, many economists and European policy makers are questioning whether Greece’s raw debt-to-GDP figure is a meaningful measure of the burden of past liabilities on the economy. “A ratio of 170 per cent does not mean anything,” said Lorenzo Bini Smaghi, a former executive board member of the European Central Bank. “The debt has a very low interest rate and a maturity of over 15 years. Its impact on the economy is much lower than in Portugal or Italy,” he added. A new round of restructuring could also create political problems for eurozone governments, many of which, as a percentage of GDP, face a higher interest bill than Greece. “How can the Spanish or Italian prime minister tell voters that Greece has a lower interest burden than we have, but we still need to give them debt forgiveness?” said Mr Darvas. He argues that rather than providing Athens outright relief, eurozone governments should give Greece assurances that they are ready to further extend maturities and cut rates were growth to disappoint in the future. Others, however, are sceptical that this approach would provide enough certainty for companies to resume investing. “[The existing maturities] are not very long, they should be extended to 50 or 60 years,” Chris Pissarides, the Nobel-winning economist told the Financial Times. “The problem is that [the current debt profile] is introducing too much uncertainty over what the future will bring and Greece needs investment now,” he added.
bullshit, this is what you wrote in direct reference to your posted chart: ". I agree with him on Greece, but I also believe that the Troika never really cared about helping Greece and only wanted to pay back their financial institutions (see chart showing how 85%~ of bailout dollars leave Greece previously posted) - they had to know these bailout programs were a farce from the get-go. If they didn't, they're guilty of being stupid." I proved you again wrong: None of the 85% figure has left Greece to flow back to the Troika or banks that assisted in the bail out. Not one single bailout euro in fact had to be repaid so far. I would have to look up the interest repayment schedules to know when they have to pay and how much but you mislead people stating that 85% of the money leaves Greece back into Troika pockets. Well, eventually every single penny is to be returned to its rightful owner, the creditors. LOL, but that is not what you wanted to suggest as we all know. What else are you thinking that Europe is handing out freebies to Greece? In exchange for what exactly? Owned once again!
Yep, that's why they lent the money - to make sure their banks got repaid. Glad we can agree once more. You know what I wanted to suggest? Telepathy is a great thing. What I wanted to suggest was the same as I've been saying all along: Debt problems cannot be solved with more debt. The Troika knew this and wanted to make sure their banks got repaid. So they extended loans to a country that could never repay it. You're quite agreeable today! Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? You're going to ruin your reputation as a grumpy, nationalistic pig! You sure were! If you stop putting your foot in your mouth all the time, this won't happen, and you won't look like such a loud-mouthed idiot.
The Catastrophic Costs Of Extend-And-Pretend Are About To Crush Europe Submitted by Charles Hugh-Smith of OfTwoMinds blog, Like a star which has expanded and now cannot maintain its grand state, Europe's extend-and-pretend economy is now poised to experience a supernova implosion. The costs of ill-conceived policies are always paid by someone--usually those with the least political power. In ill-conceived wars, the costs are paid by the soldiers on the ground and their families, and the civilians who suffer collateral damage. The costs of ill-conceived financial policies end up being paid by taxpayers, savers, borrowers and those who lose their jobs in the inevitable bust. Those who conjured up the disastrous policies slink away to plush villas or defend their stubborn addiction to failed ideologies in the media (see Keynesian Cargo Cult and Paul Krugman). The most ill-conceived financial policy of all is extend-and-pretend: extend-and-pretend means if a debtor is bankrupt, then extend him more loans to maintain the illusion of solvency. Here's how extend-and-pretend works in the real world: -- If a homebuyer has defaulted, give him new loans, or shift his loan off the books into zombie mortgage status. -- If a student defaults on student loans, shift the loans into forbearance, i.e. mask the default by putting the defaulted debt into zombie mode. -- If a bank is insolvent, give it unlimited access to unlimited lines of central bank credit and lower interest rates to zero so the bank doesn't have to pay interest on deposits. -- If a nation is bankrupt, extend it new loans. The official reason for extend-and-pretend is the belief that time will heal all-- that given enough time, all problems solve themselves via some sort of pixie dust. In essence, this faith that time will heal all is a delusional state of magical thinking, for extending and pretending only enables the kleptocrats and the elites benefiting from the failed Status Quo to continue holding power. As painful as it would have been, Greece should have been refused loans in 2010 and 2011, and been ejected from the euro. The situation was visibly hopeless to everyone then, and extend-and-pretend was never going to solve the structural imbalances in the Greek economy that had been furthered or enabled by the euro and easy credit. What did Europe buy with its $245 billion bailouts of Greece? Nothing. The $245 billion-- equal to the entire GDP of Greece--squeezed the citizens of Greece while leaving the kleptocracy in charge--the worst possible outcome. If policymakers had rejected extend-and-pretend and grasped the nettle in 2010/2011, Greece would be through the painful period of adjustment to its own currency. Deprived of the euro gravy train, its ruling kleptocracy would have collapsed or been ejected by the people as a failed regime. Thanks to extend-and-pretend bailouts, the pain of adjusting to reality is now being dumped not just on the people of Greece but on the people of every nation in the EU. Frequent contributor Mark G. explains why: most of the debt owed by Greece doesn't just vanish when Greece defaults--it must be paid by the other EU nations that guaranteed the debt. Here's Mark's explanation: The issue is not whether Greece's European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) backed debts will be repaid. The question is who will repay them. European Financial Stability Facility (Wikipedia) The structure of the EFSF and related packages means that if Greece will not/can not pay then every single guarantor country has to come up with fiscal appropriations to backstop any deficiency left by Greece in a default. This means going back to their national parliaments in most if not all cases for fiscal appropriations to do this. At this point what the Germans demonize as The Transfer Union will emerge stripped of all camouflage in all its hideousness. This is going to be politically explosive in itself for every one of these Eurozone governments. Nor is this confined to so-called "creditor" states, except in the sense that every non-defaulting state will be a creditor. So-called debtors and crisis states like Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland are all liable in large varying amounts as well as Finland, Holland, France and Germany. The first four, generally classed as being 'debt crisis' states themselves, are liable for a total of 240 billion euros as their end of the EFSF. Since Greece accounts for about 1/3 of the EFSF this works out to 80 billion euros for four weakened sates already experiencing their own Austerity. I cannot imagine that at this moment any of these cabinet politicians could tolerate a second budgetary line item that decodes as Additional New Money & Guarantees For Greece Under Tsipras/Varoufakis/Syriza. Greece can indeed initiate that process. And having done so, no one will have any further tolerance for Greece at the table. Their leverage begins and ends with default. The seeds of disaster were planted when Greece was first admitted to the ECB and euro under false pretenses. Extending imprudently massive loans to marginal borrowers always plants the seeds of disaster, and extending and pretending turns a potentially containable disaster into an uncontainable financial calamity. Yet this is the game plan of policymakers everywhere, from Europe to the U.S. to China--extend enormous loans to marginal borrowers and then mask the inevitable defaults with extend-and-pretend policies that vastly increase the size of the debt. By the time extend-and-pretend finally reaches its maximum limits, the resulting implosion is so large that the shock waves topple regimes, banks, currencies and entire nations. Like a star which has expanded and now cannot maintain its grand state, Europe's extend-and-pretend economy is now poised to experience a supernova implosion. Misrule of the Few: How the Oligarchs Ruined Greece
Interesting chart above - shows only 8% went to the greek people. That's less than I would have guessed.
Wait, so you are suggesting that if Greece had owed the same amounts not to European financial institutions but to the US government, for example, then the EU/IMF/ECB would have refused to put together a package and Europe would have let Greece die its final death? That is what you are suggesting? To avoid confusion, you say the intention of EU/IMF/ECB was to save its own financial institutions so hence my question, what if the creditors were not European financial institutions. According to your logic Greece would not be alive in its current form today anymore.
* Dude, what fucking else? What is your problem? Of course has a large chunk of money been used to service its existing debt (its pre-bailout debt). If that was not necessary then Greece would not have a debt problem and hence would not have had to get bailed out. Are you thick or something? Would you have wanted the EU and ECB alongside IMF to shower Greek farmers, fishermen and the elderly with cash instead of lowering the the debt to GDP ratio down to 112% (much because of more than 100 billion euros in debt forgiveness) * And now its 92% not 85% anymore? Lol You are a total clown who really cannot handle facts and numbers. You are swerving at every corner and pull new numbers out of your ass, made up by some blogger who hates Europe more than himself.