In the 1950's, Germany's external debts were essentially forgiven under the London Debts Agreement. Basically, it was a restructuring of Germany's debts. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts Under the London Debts Agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years, and compared to the fast-growing German economy were of minor impact. Now Greece needs assistance, i think it's a little rich for Germany to deny them restructuring of their debts.
Nobody denies Greeks to do what they decide they have to do. But everyone forces them to accept the consequences that come with whatever decision they make. Simple as that. One thing Greeks can do is to default on their debt. Nobody can deny them this right. But of course this will come with grave consequences. I prefer not to engage in further discussions with Tsingdao because he does not keep his facts straight and bends the truth to suit his arguments. But all that aside he believes the Greeks will arise from the ashes and do just well after a default. I believe the suffering and consequences for Greeks after a default will be much graver than they themselves and Tsingdao believe. We will need to see how this will play out. So much about the right to default. Now about restructuring, that is something the Greeks cannot decide on their own, there are creditors in play who have a say in that, and Germany is a major creditor. So in fact, it is not rich at all if Germany decides to deny a restructuring of debt. And here some facts for you regarding the polemic that is raging on the net regarding moral or any other perceived obligations Germany may have towards Greece: * Germany has repaid its legal and monetary reparations and obligations to Greece a long time ago. This is a fact that is easily verifiable through the study of facts available in public domain. Admittedly, Germany was assisted in that by the United States and for that Germans are very appreciative, in fact much more appreciative than Frenchmen, who have also received major financial support from the US under the Marshall agreement. In fact when you travel to Germany most would share with you their positive attitude and sentiment towards the US and Americans. This may not be true if you talk to Greek, Turkish, Middle Eastern, and North African immigrants in Germany (for various reasons), but most who trace back their roots to Germany seem to display a very positive attitude towards the US. * The Debt Agreement and Marshall agreement afforded Germany a cut in its obligations and the remainder was repaid to Greece much earlier than anticipated and agreed in the legal document. Greece freely decided to sign that agreement in exchange for aid by the US and nobody can come along today and say that Greece was forced to sign. Hence Germany does not owe anything to Greece for several decades already. We can now argue about moral obligations and whether Germany should show leniency towards Greece because of the past occupation in Greece and war crimes committed. Some bloggers ironically ask whether the subsequent government bodies of the Ottoman Empire also still owe Greeks big time. Wars and particularly war crimes always open wounds that take sometimes generations to heal. No doubt about that... *...but I think there is a reason why Germany can today stand proudly with their heads up and a good conscience. Germany has made extensive reparations to most every country that housed demands from WW1 and WW2 under the agreements those countries signed as well as to those who suffered in concentration camps, including their heirs. Germany has embodied a democratic system that has stood the test of times during the cold war as well as many other crises. I would claim that nowhere else in the world has nationalism and patriotism been thrown out of the window as much as in Germany and instead a national sense of shame and guilt has been taught to generations of children. Germans are sensitive about past WW2 topics, so sensitive that the display of the swastika or the possession of the book "Mein Kampf" are illegal and the state does not take cases of violation lightly. Germany has been a stable power in Europe and the world since 1949 and has supported the drive for freedom and democracy around the world. Germany is a netpayer into most every European Union institution, IMF. Germany is one of the world's largest donor to NGOs and charitable organizations. Germany sends out more aid workers than most other nations. Germany took part in military peace keeping missions. I think it is beyond the slightest doubt that Germany has been a "good citizen" and done everything in its power to make good on the damage done (I am not saying all damage done during the Weimar Republic can ever be "fixed" but the country still has done anything in its power to show remorse and has not just used words but implemented actions) * In summary, most in Germany today reject any sort of polemic that refers to post war crimes or atrocities caused and any sort of remaining obligations that arise from such argumentation. Most historians, politicians, and think tanks in the United States would strongly agree that Germany has made a new start, it has become a very close economic, trade, and security partner and the partnership is built on trust. So, it is hard for Germans not to get angry and not to consider their Greek neighbors savages when Germans have to watch German flags getting burned, their elected leaders cursed. Greeks can choose to default or not to default. It looks like they have big issues with austerity, something most Germans will never understand. Many aspects of the Greek culture go completely counter German culture and understanding of ethics and morals. What Greece cannot demand and choose one-sidedly is a restructuring of their debt without the explicit consent of their creditors. And something that only puts Greece into an even worse light is polemic that tangents Germany's history before the BRD was "born" in 1949. I can only repeat that if they showed remorse for their lies and trickery towards the European Union and if they showed the will to restructure their country and wild west spending habits then the EU and Germany and the IMF will surely be willing to restructure Greek's debt. I think I made my position very clear, I backed up most every point I made with historic facts and/or examples. I do not have an inclination to engage with anyone anymore who attempts to debate with false or irrelevant sources or attacks without factual backup. I am happy to engage in an intelligent discussion and that means facts are used and especially RESPECTED. Harsh words can fly at times I am 100% fine with that but I have zero respect for stupidity and arrogance to the degree that one cannot admit mistakes and bad logic even when the evidence is thrown into one's face.
Today in Wall Street Journal: Stathakis confirmes that tax collection has declined by 7 percent between November and December - which amounts to about 1.5 billion - and that between December and January probably a similar decline will be confirmed. So Greece should pay less or nothing back to Europe, but they continue to live from other people's money? Paying taxes is even not normal in Greece. Maybe we should add a "for greece" tax in all European countries so that the Greeks can continue like before to live from other people's money. Typical socialism. Socialism is horrible, Greek socialism is beyond that.
Socialism is horrible? I don't disagree, but that's pretty much how Europe is run these days, no? Huge welfare entitlements, cradle to grave.
Well, if you consider Germany a social market economy (which is how it defines itself) then I wish such model for the rest of the world. Nowhere else in the world I have ever set foot on did a person regardless of race, religion, sex, origin, sexual orientation, financial background, academic achievements have more equal opportunities than in Germany. Even the US in this category pales in comparison. Great health care coverage for EVERYBODY, education all the way until and including PhD free of charge (or virtually free) for EVERYBODY. A well functioning social security net, where one does not end up in the gutter after losing a job or a serious illness/injury. People who can afford to vacation several times a year and very manageable work hours. All that with most Germans loving their country and choosing to remain in Germany despite slightly higher income taxes. All that while the economy does very well in international comparison. All that in a country that is innovating and pumping out high quality products priced competitively. So much about a system that categorically rejects icecold killer capitalism which the US practices and embraces, but instead successfully implements the social component of a country and its culture.
Well, we have socialism in France, Spain, Portugal and Greece. Exactly the countries that have huge problems and also a lot of corruption. In Spain even the royal family is involved in this corruption, in Greece a lot of politicians are involved in corruption. Not a coincidence I think. But Europe is not run this way, some countries are. Mostly south of europe or east of europe.
Well, there is definetely socialism as well in Norway although their ressource rich situation is different. Not so sure you could talk of a more socialistic form of government in Spain than in other parts of Europe, and a very market oriented economy like Ireland and possibly Iceland (not so sure how the economy worked there besides the bloated financial system before the crisis) crashed as well, although it has gone through the crisis much better than Greece. There seems to be issues with Southern Europe that go beyond socialism. I read several times that protestantism brought better work values, along other values. Besides Volpunter gives a slightly rosy picture of Germany imo, but considering the size and the relative success of its society, it appears the more natural leader in EU, along the British who are a welcome finance friendly counterpower.
which part is too rosy for your taste? I am happy to stand corrected...where does one of the poorest immigrants with zero education as kid entering Germany not have the exact same opportunity than the child of a multi billionaire. Both pretty much get the same shot at attaining similar levels of education in Germany and similar career shots. Anyone you ever met from Germany who did not have a roof above his head, not enough to eat, no health insurance? I can't recount anyone.