Hitman: Again, thanks for your reply. Salary, unfortunately, is a key requirement (I have a family with two kids, mortgage, two dogs, etc.); you get the picture. I did notice that I can schedule my trading hours (and days) so your firm can coordinate with the assigned mentor. That leaves me the possibility of coming early and trading the Opening. Then I can go to my day job (say around 11am) which would resolve the salary issue. If this all sounds reasonable to you, I would like to drop in after 4pm to see the office and perhaps talk to you and some other traders before submitting a formal application. TIA, Ron
>I did notice that I can schedule my trading hours (and days) so your firm can coordinate with the assigned mentor. Believe me, the word "mentor" is nothing more than the guarantee that in your area there will be a senior trader, whether he is willing to teach you is completely up to him. >That leaves me the possibility of coming early and trading the Opening. Then I can go to my day job (say around 11am) which would resolve the salary issue. Sure, but believe me this is ok for the summer time (I leave work at 11AM all the times), but by September you have to put in serious effort if you want to survive in this business. 6 hour's worth of trading on a busy day is a LOT more draining than 12 hour's worth of work at my previous IT job, throw in research and planning you may not have enough energy for a second job. I hate to bring this to you but in the beginning this job has nothing to do with making money, it is purely about survival. The more effort you put into it, the quicker you will make money, it is very tough to do this and have a second job at same time. I would suggest build some serious cushion in your bank account before you attempt this. I lost money 19 out of 20 days when I first started despite putting in 16 hour days, it wasn't funny . . . I saved up one year's worth of living expenses before I took this job. Believe me trading is a TONS of stress and you want to take as much of unneccessary pressure off your back as possible. This is the type of job that's ideal for someone fresh out of college and can afford to burn a year or two even if it turns out to be a total failure. Nearly 8 months into the game, I made about the same amount of money as had I sticked with my previous 55K a year job in IT, so it wasn't that bad of a transition considering first 3 months were great months and I didn't know what I was doing, and last 2 months are really really tough (especially combined with some personal issues) . . . I DO NOT KNOW whether I can survive in this business for the long haul despite of all this, without a degree I really don't have a backup plan so this is do or die for me but it is ok because I am single, and as a friend I hope you give some serious thought into this before you dive in if you have a lot of responsibilities. >If this all sounds reasonable to you, I would like to drop in after 4pm to see the office and perhaps talk to you and some other traders before submitting a formal application. That said, it doesn't hurt to stop by and visit . . . E-mail me and let me know the day you are coming, I am not sure if I will be here every afternoon but I will see what I can do . . . You don't have to be here after 4PM, you can come in earlier and talk to the reception people . . .
hey hitman!!! i recently interviewed at world co at boca ratton in florida, it looked pretty solid, and the offer was great too for a begginer, my question is, i read some of the reviews of brokers on this site for worldco and it wasnt all that great, poor equipment, pooor management etc. did you work for them? can you offer some insight into this. i have a series 7 and 63, i would have to get the 55 no biggie there, i work for schwab right now as a broker and love daytrading. i guess im wondering what is the success rate at such firm, i know they only want me to trade nyse, i like the nasdaq much better but its a rule there i guess. oh yeah one other thing, what does an average begginer make their first year? thnx for your help!!!
>Poor equipment I don't know, I have 3 monitors and I think my equipment gets the job done. >pooor management Disagree, while it is no charity, this management really helps struggling traders. I have seen traders in deep holes getting special checks so they can cover their living expenses, so it is not bad . . . >did you work for them? I am a 8 month trader in their New York office . . . >im wondering what is the success rate at such firm For every winner, there has to be at least one loser, that's the rule of the game. 95% of the people talking on those boards will never ever be able to trade for a living (and I too question whether I can truly keep this up), that's a fact. At this firm, the survival rate is better, I would say 50/50 (forget what our marketing people tell you). >i like the nasdaq much better but its a rule there i guess. Actually, having traded both I believe NYSE is MUCH BETTER for new traders, forgive the hype, stop making excuses, and learn the game. >oh yeah one other thing, what does an average begginer make their first year? thnx for your help!!! Wrong question, totally wrong, if you can make any money at all first year you should be grateful. There is a woman sitting next to me who has been trading a little less than a year and up at least half a million, without previous trading experience. There is a guy sitting next to me who just quit after 10 month's worth of struggling. SURVIVE, SURVIVE, SURVIVE, that's the only word that should be on a new trader's mind, not how much money they should be making first year. Loving it and doing it are two completely different games, it is a very ruthless game you have to play and when you hit your first losing streak you will question your ability to do this for a living. It is very different to trade your Datek account at work versus trading full time, VERY. Be grateful about any money you make first year, everyone is different, there is NO average. Your first question should be how long will it take me to get positive? The average at this firm is six months, worry about that first. This is not 1999 and 2000 we are talking about, with crazy momentum and volatility, reduce your expectations. As for myself, started late October 2000, broke even early February (down as much as $4500 at one point), hit all time high of +$45K early April, too confident, market got tougher, some personal emotional issues, before I knew it I lost $10K in two weeks. How fast did it turn? I was on a 10 games winning streak, finished it off with my all time best +$5000, next day I lost $500, and the day after that, I lost $4250, that's how quickly your hot streak can end and how quickly your cold streak can start. I could hardly eat/sleep that night, while it was by no means the most painful experience in my life, it was a huge blow to my confidence. Now the summer just kicked in, I am trading peanut sizes to stay out of trouble, this past week I made $400, wow, that's like $10 a hour. But you know what, after my first down month of the year (in May I lost $600, not much, but when you put in as much time and effort as I do and come up empty, it hurts), I realized being up is better than being down, even if it is just $400. I am up $36K and with 92% pay out, it is about what I would make had I sticked to my IT job during those 8 months. That said, I am still learning, and I believe i will get better, and I can't complain about this transition. Why am I telling you all this? Because you are about to face the single greatest challenge in your career, and I can say this with total confidence regardless of what your previous career is (unless you were a professional Hitman Good luck, you will need it . . .
wow, ouch - mr hittman well said. I guess there is a whole other side to trading as far as mentality goes. I guess the only way for me to know is to try and see how i hold up under the pressure, just got to jump in and hopefuly with tight risk management i wont get in too much trouble. So thank you for sheding some light on this issue for me. I have worldco down here in boca raton but my problem is that i live in orlando and from what they and you tell me, i dont know if i can just pickup and go down there - without any pay and just hope for the best and get profitable soon, very soon, thats added pressure that wont help the situation. So i'll have to work it out in my head to see if its for me. There is two other places here in orlando that i would much rather preffer but theyre not ready just yet to train me. Got to keep the dream alive and wait. But once again thnx for all of your help and knowledge. Good luck!!!
What about the mechanics of the strategies available to pros only? Like bullets and conversions, spreads, order imbalances at the open, etc? How specifically do they work? What is the expectation of these trades? Pertaining to leverage what are the advantages over trading index futures? Etc...
Janko: Never ever jump into a business like this giving yourself a tight deadline ("I must make money in 3 months"), it is a recipe guaranteed for failure. You need, realistically, at least a year's worth of living expenses, you do not want to cheat yourself out of a potential dream career, you want to allow yourself time to perform, and it really takes a LOT of time to learn this business. Vonk: Bullets are easily the most powerful weapon at a professional trading firm. It allows you to bypass the uptick rule, and frankly there is no uptick if a sector is getting smashed off the open, the specialist in thinner stocks will fill you just before he squeezes lol. Perhaps just as importantly, is the power of pyramiding, in this choppy market there are not a lot of positions worth pyramiding into, but by September, you want to build up your winners. When you go long you can buy 1000 then another 500 then another 500 (say when a large BID shows up), but when you go short if a larger ASK shows up you won't get filled, with bullets, you can control your risk so much better and add to your position at best possible times. Let's not forget shorts are usually a lot smoother than longs (fear > greed), so bullets are a HUGE edge. (P.S. I don't use it much because my bullet rate is quite high since I am new, and I have trouble making enough money to pay for the bullets in this climate, but by September, it will be a main staple). Yes, senior traders at my firm get their own Bloomberg's, and it is extremely useful. Say SLB released some bad earnings and the entire OSX is getting destroyed, on NYSE there is no way you can see what the open price will be until after the fact, with a Bloomberg you can get the list of OSX stocks that will not gap down much, prepare your bullets, and sell right off the open. Given the size I trade I am not familiar with MOC's and Spreads. I haven't traded futures before, but first of all at a firm no matter how much margin you get, only a very small amount of your own capital is on the line, big advantage. Also, if my main trading stock is QQQ/SPY/DIA I would have probably been smoked, the market has been extremely choppy. On NYSE however there is a huge list of sectors to choose from (unlike Nasdaq where everything follows the Nasdaq futures), if semi's are choppy today, you can trade energy, chemical, insurance, brokers, etc. etc . . . Every day, there are always some sector that trended flawlessly, and that is important for those of us who do not scalp much . . .
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=1229 To help keep this discussion in topic please see the thread above for explanation of bullets. rtharp
LLC's main goal is to generate the "juice", lot's of commissons from their traders. Obviously there are some exceptional guys who use them to make a lot of money as traders. One thing this whole thread ignored is the rebate, and desk fee's !!! If you trade listed and you don't get rebate on high volume you are getting screwed by your LLC !!!!!!! some will make an effort to teach and instill good habbits some don't care at all. The advantage is the leverage and the quote system... well I rather play the futures and use no chart system and other crap to pay $500-1000 a month overhead !!! I am in a hole to start every month like this !!! Schoenfeld had no desk fee - Bright's $600 is not too bad... others ??????????