A New Israeli Study Confirms Our Worst Fears

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by WAEL012000, Oct 15, 2007.

  1. This is a post contributed by TorontoTrader. I am posting it in its entirety.

    This is a democracy? Heaven help us when they come for us.


    A NEW ISRAELI STUDY CONFIRMS OUR WORST FEARS : On the academic research of Psychologist Nofer Ishai-Karen and Psychology Prof. Joel Elitzur,

    Dalia Karpel
    shortened translation of article in Haaretz `Hamedovevet`


    `We - Israeli Soldiers - were put there to punish the Palestinians`, says Ilan Vilenda, an Israeli soldier who served in Rafah during the first Intifada.

    Ilan is the only soldier of 21 who agreed to have his name published, after he was interviewed by psychologist Nofer Ishai-Karen.

    The soldiers spoke freely to Nofer, who served with them in the same ASHBAL platoon 20 years ago; They disclosing their innermost emotions about the horrendous crimes, in which they took part: Murder, breaking bones of Palestinian children, actions of humiliation, destruction of property, robbery and theft.

    Soldier `A` testimony:
    `We decided to turn an old shower in our base to a make-shift detention cell. A Palestinian was brought there, handcuffed and mouth banded so he couldn`t talk, or move. We `forgot him there for three days`...

    Soldier `B` testimony:
    `I was on my first patrol. Others simply shot like mad. I started to shoot as they did. They `set my on`. I took my weapon and shot. Nobody was there to tell me otherwise`

    -- Psychologist Ishai-Karen was shocked to find that the soldiers enjoyed the `intoxication of power`, and had pleasure from using violence. She said: `Most of my interviewees enjoyed their own instigated violence during their Occupation service``.

    Soldier `C` testimony:
    `The truth is that I love this mess - I enjoy it. It is like being on drugs.
    If I didn`t enter Rafah, to put down some rebellion -at least once a week-
    I`d go berserk.

    Soldier `D` testimony:
    What is great is that you don`t have to follow any law or rule. You feel that YOU ARE THE LAW; you decide. Once you go into the Occupied Territories YOU ARE GOD`.

    Emotional dumbness

    Soldier `E` testimony:
    We drove an APC through Rafah. A man of 25 walked nearby. He didn`t hurl a
    stone at us or anything. Then without any reason `X` shot him in the stomach. We left him lying on the sidewalk`.

    Soldier `F` testimony:
    Some `tough guys` developed it into `an ideology`, according to which we have to react brutally even for minor events. A woman threw a sandal at me. I kicked her with my foot at her crotch. I broke her. She can`t have children any longer. Next time she won`t throw sandals at me... and when another woman spat at me she got the butt of my gun in her face. She can`t spit now.

    Soldier `G` described his first forced entry to a home to detain a
    `He was real big, some 30 years old. He refused detention. We hit
    him but couldn`t force him down. Some people came hurling stones at us. We
    beat him and told him to lie down. Till he finally did. We drove to the base
    with him. By that time he had lost consciousness. He died some days later`.

    Nofer Ishai-Karen: `Some NCOs encouraged the soldiers to behave brutally, and provided their own example.

    Soldier `H` testimony:
    After two months in Rafah a new NCO commander arrived. The first patrol, which he commanded, was at 06 hours. Rafah was under curfew. Not a soul was on the street. Then he saw a young boy, of about 4, playing in the sand in the courtyard of his home. The kid was building a castle in the sand. Suddenly the NCO, a guy from the Engineers Corps, ran to chase the kid. We followed. He captured the kid and broke his elbow. Broke the kid`s elbow! Damn me if I`m not telling the truth! Then the NCO treaded on the kid`s stomach three times, before he moved on. We couldn`t believe our eyes... But the next day we went on patrol with that guy and the soldiers started to imitate him...
    What happened then?
    Some guys couldn`t stomach it. The case of severe abuse of three young
    adolescents, who were bounded hand and foot by a staff sergeant, got them to
    alert a senior officer. `When the medic arrived the boys were bleeding all
    over, their clothes were soaked with blood, and they were shivering from fear.
    They were made to kneel like dogs and were afraid to move`. The NCO was
    punished by 3 months detention. But the platoon commander backed the NCO and
    reprimanded the conscientious soldiers for `defaming the platoon`.`

    Nofer Ishai-Karen: The sacred value in the [Israeli] Army is `fighters`
    solidarity`, i.e., loyalty towards your fellow combatants. The platoons
    protected its secrets, as a family defends its `black sheep`. The fellows
    regard as `traitors` the conscientious soldiers, says Nofer Ishai-Karen. The
    cover-up was complete when our `good guy` was excommunicated and ostracized by the entire platoon. And the NCO? He left the country, and now lives in the U.S. of A. The majority of the soldiers of these platoons had left Israel. Only five or six remain in Israel.

    Nofer studied two platoons ESHBAL and ESHKHAR, the last was more extremely
    violent, she says.

    Finally back to Ilan Vilenda, the only soldier who allowed Nofer to use his
    full name and even be photographed. Vilenda was a staff sergeant in charge of `operations`.
    ILAN` VILENDA`S testimony:
    `Our job was to beat them... I personally hit a boy and another. I used my
    hands or the truncheon. We beat more severely [Palestinian] adults. We acted
    like policemen but we acted outside the law. There was this Palestinian who
    had a TV at home. The World Cup in Soccer was on, and we used to invade his
    privacy to watch the games. After a while he had enough, and asked us take the TV set and move.

    `I was born on a Kibbutz, to a family whose values were humane `Zionist left
    wing`. The Palestinians threw tons of stones at us. Whereas at the beginning
    my ideological commitment restrained my actions, my anger accumulated, and I
    released it violently. It was meant to be. We were there `to make them
    [Palestinians] pay. My political views changed too. I now support the extreme-right-religious National-Religious Party. After his release from the army, Vilenda and 5 other Israelis were arrested in Goa, India for possession of LSD. `I wanted to serve my country. This was my task... but the entire IDF is executing illegal-orders.

    Who is responsible?

    General Matan Vilna`i [now serving under Ehud Barak as vice Minister of
    Defense] was at the time [during the FIRST INTIFADA] Chief of the IDF Southern Command. He often visited our platoon and discussed with soldiers, says Nofer But... there you go... the `Instruments of DENIAL and CONCEALMENT` went to work...`

    Besides: The Israeli Army didn`t provide the unit with regular training, not
    were the soldiers given regular leaves, or provided with free time to
    recuperate and recover. The interviewed soldiers maintained that the longer
    they operated [against the Palestinians in Rafah] without leave, the more
    violent they became in imposing their kind of `Law and Order`. They claimed
    `Army [commanders] were aware of the erosion towards violence, and encouraged it in order to save manpower`.


    General Matan Vilna`i must have known what happened. High-ranking officers who served on the Occupied West Bank had voiced similar warnings against Israeli Army behavior. `The orders left a wide gap, a margin... of intentionally un-specified `grey zone`, which encouraged violent behavior of soldiers`, said Reserve Colonel Elisha Shapira, who served in the Nablus Area at the same time. Soldiers were told `don`t hit Palestinians - but bring them to interrogation `swell-headed` - blown-up`.

    The events, which Nofer Ishai-Karen researched, happened some 17 years ago.
    The situation has further deteriorated since that time. Now Israeli Army and
    Air Force General openly take pride in acts of revenge against Palestinian
    civilians. Maj-Gen Eliezer Shkeidi took pride in announcing that his pilots
    break the sound barrier over Gaza, producing sonic booms.

    These cause severe PTSD symptoms among young children; they have also caused
    miscarriages among pregnant women. The indiscriminate shelling of Palestinian homes had caused many deaths lately, including many children. Perhaps last but not least: The Israeli cabinet, backed by Washington, said it would disrupt power and fuel supply to Gaza.

    [1] This is an abbreviated translation of an article by Dalia Karpel titled
    HAMEDOVEVET [=the one who makes people talk]. The article appeared on the
    Hebrew Weekend Supplement, on 21 September 2007. It is based on academic
    research, which Nofer Ishai-Karen and Psychology Prof. Joel Elizur, of the
    Hebrew University published in ALPAYIM Magazine Vol. 31.

    [2] The article was not translated to English and thus did NOT appear in
    Haaretz English Language edition.

    [3] Psychology Prof. Joel Elizur, of the Hebrew University, who guided Nofer Ishai-Karen in her Master`s thesis, served in the reserves in the Mental Health Department of the Israeli Army. But the IDF wouldn`t allow him to research into Israeli Soldiers` violence. The researchers hold the interview raw audio material.

    [4] To my best knowledge the Israeli Army hasn`t either charged a single case of abuse or murder by soldiers of Palestinians in proper court.


  2. Wael, what's up, where is the link? LOL, You should know better than trust morons like TT2 (he's likely an arab/muslim so you know he lies).

    The Arab Personality
    This is a society wherein the lie is an essential component of behavior patterns, and lying is endorsed by religious sages. The famous Muslim theologian, al-Ghazzali, claimed that the lie is not wrong in itself. If the lie is the way to achieve good results, then it is permissible. It is necessary to lie when the truth might lead to unpleasant or undesired results.
  3. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!

    Your attempt to reduce the subject to a link missing is going to backfire on you dddooo. Below is an Israeli Magazine duplicate article.


    but that is not the point. Please please tell me that you deny these claims buddy. Please tell me that they are not systematical. Please do!!

    dddooo...my friend...The crimes will be exposed no matter how much you try to hide or cover them.
  4. This guy states "ARAB" personality refers to one scholar. maybe there are a 100 but why involve thew whole race.

    ghazzali just like any other person has a right to his own opinion. there were people who disagreed with him, even denounced him. and YES they were arabs too (gasp! horror!).

    takes a very shallow person to to use engage in character assassination of a great scholar/philosopher.

    nobody is perfect - except for zionists i guess


    wael, it does get frustrating when you come across this kind of garbage. just remember, not everybody falls for zionist propaganda.

    what goes around comes around. what frustrates israeli jews is that their ilk who live outside israel do not blindly follow their lies. in fact, these foreign jews feel embarrassed talking about israel or zionism. even they treat israeli jews with suspicion just the way israelis treat arabs/muslims with suspicion. the result, israel jews accuse them of traitors, terrorist sympathisers, self-hating jews, etc. and they wonder why more and more jews who leave israel leave zionism behind.

    god works in mysterious ways.
  5. It has never ever effected me loanfinder. I am aware that there are attempts made by a group of hard core zionists to generalize against Arabs and Muslims in an attempt to utilize hate and brainwashed foot soldiers to carry out the fight against what these zionists perceive as enemies.

    It is so sad, and predictable, that these zionists are now sharing the same platform as other fascist groups as nazis and ultra religious Christian zionist groups in promoting the raciest hate against Arabs and Muslims.

    It is also so sad and predictable that, aside from me, some of the most effected victims of these neo fascists are millions of honest Jews who are petrified by these zionists and their pals.

    I've always belied that the biggest threat to world peace are not Israeli Jews but rather strictly American Zionists who in alot of instances blocked attempts to bridge the gab between Arabs and their Israeli counterparts.

    It is not a surprise that when Olmert wanted to stop the war with Hizbullah and call for a ceasefire, Eliot Abraham, an American zionist, was one of the biggest opponent to such move.
  6. No, I meant a reputable source that you claimed in the original post by linking to Haaretz. All you could come up with was one of those virulently anti-Israeli, fringe left or anti-semitic websites:

    "The Occupation Magazine was established in October 2004 by a group of Israeli anti-occupation activists "

    PS the article is garbage anyway even if it exists. An unknown asshole is inteviewing a small number of disgruntled soldiers. Big fucking deal. Clearly no reputable media organization has bothered to tranlsate and publish the article, not even british anti-Israeli papers like Guardian.
  7. as a muslim (in case u haven't guessed),the biggest threat is arab/muslim in fighting. the zionist jews are (currently) united and they deserve to reap their rewards.

    we content with quantity and reject the virtues of unity. so we deserve the humiliation we face today.

    we behave like zionists (play the victim and treat others as a thret) but unlike the zionists, we do not band together.

    fortunately, the unity of the zionists is based on deceit and eventually they will turn on each other. actually, they've already started.
  8. The Arab Personality

    Factionalism vs. Unity:

    The Arab personality oscillates in the space between the anarchic Arab character, separatist and violent, and the need to act jointly to achieve goals. This is the syndrome of polar reversals between factionalism and unity, between competitiveness and cooperation, between the aspiration for tribal freedom, the free spirit of the desert, and accepting authority and submitting to government. This is the syndrome between the stormy, violent personality, and the demands of society and the environment for conformity and submission. This is the syndrome between clan loyalty and tribal separatism on one hand, and accepting tyrannical, authoritarian rule submissively, without challenge, on the other. In this anarchic and violent society, the fear of social breakdown and disorientation is paramount, and dictates passive patterns of behavior. Above all, the most important continuum for understanding the Arab personality is that between submission to and fawning over those with perceived power, at one end, and cruel, violent, anarchic, unrestrained wildness, at the other.

    Hostility and suspicion are dominant characteristics in the Arab personality. This is expressed by the saying: I and my brothers against my cousins’ sons; I and my cousins’ sons against the neighbors; I and the neighbors against the members of the other clan; I and the members of the other clan against outsiders.
    #10     Oct 15, 2007