The problem is that you want it only going one direction. If you look at the beginning of this thread, the theists were generally cordial in my opinion. However, the atheists were venomous. Here's a few examples: "The devil doesn't exist. Satan is manufactured by the minds of people for at least two purposes. 1. to use as a tool to attempt to control people with fear. 2. to have something else to cast blame on instead of accepting responsibilty for ones own actions: the devil made me do it. However, a 666 moving average can exist - if it's helpful to you then use it." --Plumlazy "my death or "afterlife" is the same as an ant's, a dog's, a worm's, the pope's, or adolf hitler's. when the pope dies, his afterlife or death will be exactly what adolf hitler got. that is the same i will get. that is the same we all will get NO MATTER WHAT CRAP YOU BELIEVE OR WERE BRAINWASHED INTO BELIEVING." --GG "if you want an epiphany, rid yourself of religious crap and read some science books." --GG "Yes yes... like live active volcanos created by GOD, with lava flows which spurt out and burn innocent babies to death in unimaginable horrific ways. To top it off, he KNEW this would happen BEFORE he created the volcano since he is omniscient. What a nice god" --axe "Don't take the story literally Gekko. It's a parable." --dgagabriel "My unicorn completely agrees with you." --TMTrader I contend that noone knows what happened in the first 10-34 seconds of the universe. I think you can see where I am going: it is fine for you to say that I must believe, i.e. must have "faith." But you are in the same boat. You must also "believe" in your position as to the beginning of the universe. I am willing to be honest and say that I "believe" in God, that I must have a certain element of "faith" (which is NOT to say that I think there is no evidence for the divine). However, what chaps my posterior is that you guys act as if you KNOW what happened in the first 10-34 seconds of the universe, almost as if you were there! Maybe I missed it, but I have not yet seen one of you guys admit that your atheistic beliefs are based on "faith" just as much as mine. So I reply to you as well, "Either speak and think about it, or just believe quietly in blind faith. You cant have it both ways."
Longshot - You are becoming a living example of micro-evolution, at least in your posts. They are more civil, more thoughtful, and not filled with unrelated profanity. (Take that from someone who prior to 4 yrs of age was more profane than most adults.)
Eddington, Hoyle and Einstein all abandoned what I'll call the old-fashioned materialism that is predominant on this thread. None of them believed in a Personal God, but all of them had their atheism shaken by what they discovered the universe to be. Hoyle is probably the best example as his atheism was shaken to the core and he ended up as a sort of pantheist in spite of the fact it was he who somewhat derisively coined the term "Big Bang". But, again, all recognized that something incredible happened at t - 0. Is it so hard to admit that we're all at a place of "faith"?
that is an assumption on your part. maybe language can describe it adequately. at the very least we get to think about it, create models and maybe even get close to the truth.
Shoeshine: "Maybe I missed it, but I have not yet seen one of you guys admit that your atheistic beliefs are based on "faith" just as much as mine. " ( In reference to the universe ) That's because there is nothing to admit. There is no faith based belief here. Atheism has NOTHING to do with the beginning of the universe, and therefore does not require any kind of faith. Get your facts straight. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god or gods. It makes NO statements amount the universe, or evolution, or ANYTHING outside of the lack of belief in god/gods. I DONT KNOW what happened at the beginning of the universe, and therefore have nothing to prove. Im aware that science has THEORIES about what happened at the beginning, but I technically dont "believe" in theories, I take them as is, which is a hypothesis with supporting evidence. This is far beyond the fairy tales theists have to offer, and forced to choose between the two, a rational person would obviously choose the hypothesis that has at least some evidence to back it. I prefer to stay agnostic though and simply state that there is evidence for the scientific version, and leave it at that. Belief is not binary in science, it's a grey scale. Theistic approaches get a 0 on my scale of 0 to 10, just like all mythology, whereas the big bang may get at 5+. Just a fuzzy guess, since im not up to date on big bang theory. Don't try and cubby hole atheists all into a neat bunch. It's just one attribute of a human, and does not describe anything beyond a lack of belief. Shoeshine:"Yes yes... like live active volcanos created by GOD, with lava flows which spurt out and burn innocent babies to death in unimaginable horrific ways. To top it off, he KNEW this would happen BEFORE he created the volcano since he is omniscient. What a nice god" --axe This is Venomous? Just a clear example of the hypocrisy of religious claims. So I shouldn't bring up obvious examples like this which make my case because your so thin skinned that this upsets you? Do you have any idea how many times theists have told me I was going to burn in hell for all eternity, in my life??? Let's not be even more hypocritical, shall we? peace axeman
^ | | | | | | look who has been hiding from me better stay off Atkins thread axie or I will thrash you even more severely!!
as unpopular as my statement may be, it makes total sense. show me something that indicates one man's death/"after-life" is different from any other man's. furthermore, show me how any man's death is different than a dinosaur's or a microscopic bug's.
Hiding from YOU? Your delusions of grandeur continue to grow, day by day. Thanks for letting the world know. peace axeman
Officially ignoring longshot. One of our newer members revealved WHY longshot is like this. For everyone unlucky enough to have missed this entertaining post, I give you this link: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=341724#post341724 That post goes a long way in explaining his behavior. peace axeman