"Axe: If you choose to not believe, that is your choice and i RESPECT your choice......But if I or others choose to BELIEVE...that is my choice and you should respect MY choice and my beliefs......" Agreed. "if all you are going to do is a) demand pictures as your proof or " People continue to take this out of context. When I was talking about video evidence, I was referring to a very specific case. Later, I made it clear that video evidence, is not sufficient, and in fact, video/picture evidence is not even required in many cases. EVIDENCE is more complicated than that. It is inaccurate to claim that I require picture evidence for everything. I don't. "b) say foul things and ridicule my beliefs....you should not be debating because its insulting and quite frankly, you are starting to sound like GG and Longshot....your better then that , you know that.....I expect silly answers and clown like attitudes form them, that is why nobody is paying attention to them, but from you we expect more.....the thing about the church bus? " It's pure FRUSTRATION your seeing because the theists throw out the same stuff over and over, and this is nothing more than time wasting at this point. The church bus thing, I hope it was obvious, was not meant to be an argument of sorts, except in one way. If you really believe in a benevolent god, then your positions has many issues it needs to solve, like the church bus. I understand that those examples upset theists, and they SHOULD. They are gapping holes in SOME theists definition of a benevolent god. "Classless.....7 people are dead...there is deep sorrow in many a household tonight and you are using it as a laughable debating point???? " Far from the truth. It saddens me as well, deeply. But it also points out the hypocrisy of the theists. Accidents like that PISS ME OFF, because you will always hear some theist making some remark about how god "saved the rest" of them, or some NONSENSE like that. They give him credit, even though he could have easily saved everyone on the bus. It's down right insulting to all reasonable people. "I would love to continue discussing this very complex and deeply divided subject, but the one thing Ive noticed is how ANGRY the nonbelievers get...why? " It's FRUSTRATION. Especially when someone like Doubter fabricates a ton of crap, and tries to make it seem like I said it. This really pisses me off. " If you don't believe, that is your choice....and we can continue to have a friendly debate about it...this is the beauty of being a human with free will....but for you to become so angry and lash out in so many ways makes me wonder if you have other deep rooted religious issues...." I have issues with theists with tactics like Doubters. "I have not called anyone names or insulted them or told them their beliefs were stupid, yet it seems that every other post you and others are doing that ....why? I'll continue a cordial debate but i would ak for respect of my religious views the same way i would respect your non religious views. " I think theistic beliefs are unfounded. Plain and simple. You think evolutionary beliefs are unfounded. Plain and simple. Your in the same boat as me. peace axeman
"Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the chances are that you won't know it, and may even vigorously deny it. Accepting that a virus might be difficult to detect in your own mind, what tell-tale signs might you look out for? I shall answer by imaging how a medical textbook might describe the typical symptoms of a sufferer (arbitrarily assumed to be male). 1. The patient typically finds himself impelled by some deep, inner conviction that something is true, or right, or virtuous: a conviction that doesn't seem to owe anything to evidence or reason, but which, nevertheless, he feels as totally compelling and convincing. We doctors refer to such a belief as ``faith.'' 2. Patients typically make a positive virtue of faith's being strong and unshakable, in spite of not being based upon evidence. Indeed, they may feel that the less evidence there is, the more virtuous the belief (see below). This paradoxical idea that lack of evidence is a positive virtue where faith is concerned has something of the quality of a program that is self-sustaining, because it is self-referential (see the chapter ``On Viral Sentences and Self-Replicating Structures'' in Hofstadter, 1985). Once the proposition is believed, it automatically undermines opposition to itself. The ``lack of evidence is a virtue'' idea could be an admirable sidekick, ganging up with faith itself in a clique of mutually supportive viral programs. 3. A related symptom, which a faith-sufferer may also present, is the conviction that ``mystery,'' per se, is a good thing. It is not a virtue to solve mysteries. Rather we should enjoy them, even revel in their insolubility." from "Viruses of the Mind" by Richard Dawkins. http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- do YOU have a mind virus??
Axe: You see, now that is a well thought out reply that raises good points...The " benevolent God " issue is one that has haunted many believers and non believers for years....on the other hand....God gave man free will....the bus was an accident...the shuttle explosion was an accident...these things happen....and truthfully, I feel that many of the divisions of religion come from Jesus and his teachings....The God of the old testament is a vengeful and sometimes war mongering God who only seems to care about the Hebrews.....The God the Jesus speaks of is forgiving, loving, charitable and would never ever be for any war or any act of violence..." offer your other cheek to the man who struck you"...if a thief steals you cloak, offer him you coat as well ect...
"i feel..." "I believe.." do you have anything to offer besides "feeling", faith, "belief"?? :eek: ps and what of the big bang proof you wanted sooo badly?? i gave it to you, not one peep?? what have you say now!!??
have you ever seen the movie with Arnold Schwartzenagger when he fights the devil, played by Gabrielle byrne???? There is a hysterical scene in there in which he's trying to get Arnold to come over to the dark side and he starts berating Arnold about God and to paraphrase says " What the F#ck? You see a beautiful sunrise and you say it's the act of God, but then a flood or earthquake hits and thousands get killed and you say " well God doesn't;t get involved in that. why does God get a free ride"? funny I don't believe that God gets involved in all these things but i do believe in the power of prayer....Interestingly, "science is starting to take a close look at the power of praying, although they believe it is the healthy mental attitude that is the biggest factor.
" You have made a false assumption here. I was quoting a evolutionist author and I was surprised at his assessment." It doesn't matter that you were quoting an evolutionist. This was his opinion, and is a claim he can back up. More importantly, if he claims there is no third option, THIS DOES NOT MEAN that evolution in GENERAL makes this claim. He is not evolutions "official spokesperson". "I see nothing but macro-evolution mentioned anywhere here." WRONG. In your original post you said: "There is some claimed evidence for evolution and some claimed for creation. " And then in the follow up post you switched to: "Where are the massive piles of evidence for macro-evolution or the reliability of decay......" "It is also a very false assertion to say I have refused to look at evidence for macro-evolution. I have looked at in in fairly close proximity longer than you have probably been alive...." Fair enough. "In odds and poker I like my hand much better." Pascals Wager. I wont bother to point out all the flaws in this line of thinking. They are well documented and we have been over it a million times on this website already. "I could never find any thing on the size of the egg, I thought I left it open to go either way. Again putting words in my mouth and then arguing with the inserted words." No words inserted here. You originally made the claim that it had to be HUGE. I claimed you therefore didnt understand Big Bang theory. THEN you did your homework and discovered big bang theory claimed that the starting state was quite SMALL. You even refereed to it as "egg like" when referring TO ITS SIZE. You corrected yourself. "What I don't see is an answer to many creationists questions of. 1. How can you be positive of the amount and state of the decaying isotope at the beginning of the time in the test. The problem is in the dating not the measurements." Via observation. To quote: "No deviations have yet been found from this equation for radioactive decay." This is by a Christian PHD in physics. Learn more here: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html "2. Related to 1. One isotope decays into another. How can you be positive there were no amounts of the latter isotope present in the original backdated sample." To quote: "However, there is one complication. One cannot always assume that there were no daughter atoms to begin with. It turns out that there are some cases where one can make that assumption quite reliably" Further explanations here: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html "3. How can you be positive that the rate of decay has been constant for billions of years." This is an extremely fallacious question. It is a loaded question. I might as well ask: How do we know gravity existed more than 10 billions years ago? Or how about: How do we know the laws of physics have stayed consistent more than a few billion years?" "4. 10,000 establishment papers need to answer the above questions." They have. Go read them. Read the full article by your christian buddy: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html "This is strictly your opinion and nothing more. The evidence actually shows the opposite of what you claim. Like my creationist friends you are strictly staying to atheist references." WRONG again. Look in this post. Im posting CHRISTIAN references. A christian PHD in physics! Go argue with him now. It's your opinion that the evidence shows the opposite of what I claim, but the experts in the field are on my side, and disagree with you. I bet that if you called your christian PHD physics buddy he would verify that the evidence DOES NOT claim the opposite, and that the vast vast majority of scientists in the world who study this stuff would take the opposite position to yours. peace axeman
Here is the problem TM. Imagine the following situation. You walk up to a colorful wall with a door. The door has a sign on it that says: "CIRCUS THIS WAY". You open the door and just before you FALL TO YOUR DEATH, you notice that the wall is on the edge of a cliff and its too dark to notice there is no floor. A huge crowd of excited kids are rushing towards the door with glee. They open the door, and all fall to their deaths. You stood by and said nothing. Not a peep. ANY COURT OF LAW WOULD HOLD YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MAN SLAUGHTER OF ALL THESE CHILDREN. But god gets a free ride. He KNEW that church bus would crash. What if the bus had babies on it? Did they have free will to board the bus? Of course not. Yet they are killed as well as god STOOD ASIDE, and let it happen. If he really exists, there is no way he can be labeled benevolent in any way. There are NO excuses for this. I could come up with real life examples if you wish. peace axeman