Axe i agree 100% with what you say....and that is my point....science is constantly changing its tune and it's ' facts'...you have to admit that they say one thing is a certainty today, but 10 years from now they change the story again....as for the religions beliefs, you would have people INSIDE the same religion who would disagree, that is nothing new....but if you view the fundamental religions beliefs at the core of most religious sects...they are one in the same....I for one do not believe the big bang theory and I scoff at any scientist, or theory that tries to advance that theory as FACT not theory......for the last time, THAT WAS MY POINT when i laughed at the link GG supplied....to me, they are basing a lot of their theory on faith not fact....which is very similar to religion....and as I stated before, I DO NOT believe in the story of Genesis anymore then I believe in the big bang theory....but now i see LS is here offering no prroof and lots of insults....i was enjoying this debate but will shortly step out if all he is going to do is make qutoes that prove nothing nor offer anything except to isult posters..... peace tm
If you whish to seriously discuss this , i'm game but if you want to go tit for tat, its a waste of time....In addition, if the burden of proof for creation through God is not the same as the burden of proof on science or the big bang theory, its a waste of time to discuss.....but i do believe that genesis was written by man and for man....Adam and Eve was not about the apple, but about why men like 'cherries' and why we have seven days ect...it put things into perspective for man.... I believe that God has spoke through the profits....many of these prophets have walked an talked to God.......You and others do not accept this as proof of God, but before you dismiss it, All i want is the same burden of proof on science...therefore, is there ANYONE who was alive at the moment of the Big bang? any one watch it? record it? write about it? If you are looking for a video tape or picture like AXe, there is none, except the shroud of turin which Axe does not believe either....but if that sort of proof is your sole burden on Gods existence than it is pointless to continue to debate,,,,likewise though, i want to discount any notion of the big bang due to the same standards of proof
Got back from my hunting gathering. Way back when we started the computer creation discussion my underlying point was that the computer is a very complex mechanism and definitely was created (it did not evolve on its' own, spontaneously). On this we can agree. I would say the same for all of the things that science has provided for us. Medicines, space craft, fine cars, artificial body parts, and the list goes on and on. But all of these inventions were made through the design process and there was external intelligence applied to their discovery, planning, and production. In fact maybe all of the things that have appeared in the last several years were created by intelligent design. Science has shown us this pattern of creation for over 100 years. So far so good. We believe this because it is obvious. Now on the other hand we are asked to accept the assertion that everything else was developed in a different way. Evolution. In other words everything changes at the point of proof of development. But at this point nothing can really be proven on either side and both sides are saying accept our position on the basis of faith. There is some claimed evidence for evolution and some claimed for creation. If you scrape away all of the psuedo reasoning on either side it all boils down to whether you believe in or reject God and nothing more. Some totally reject the bible as untrustworthy and just babbel but then they would have to claim the Jews don't exist because there is some in the bible about them and yet they claim the bible is completely erroneous. I could go on with many many irrefutable facts and statements in the bible , like the Jew example to start with. Obviously those making these claims are a bit off base, at least to reasonable people. Actually there are mountains of evidence that the bible is very accurate and reliable but those rejecting God make fools of themselves by rejecting everything in the book. Theists are often asked "who created God?". I now ask. Whatever blew up in the big bang must have been very large and how long do you figure it took for that massive mass to evolve or was it created? Does decay dating go back beyond the mass that blew up to tell us when it started to evolve or did decay dating change at the time of the explosion? They try to tell us decay dating hasn't changed in 3-14 billion years but where is the proof for that. As you can see the evolutionists want you to exhibit a massive amount of faith on very little proof. Non-life to life, nothing to something, something out of nothing all sound like miracles to me so why not just believe in the King of miracles.
there is mountains of evidence that the bible is FOS! there is mountains of evidence that jesus is a MYTH! NEVER existed! you give us same old tired arguments that you dont really understand and that have been refuted eons ago. get up to date at least.
Evidence for "Big Bang" theory: (in a nutshell) 1)Big Bang Nucleosynthesis 2)Cosmic Microwave Background 3)Hubble Expansion here is the evidence [simplified] for support of big bang. let see if you dumb enuf to try to refute it. [i doubt you ever heard it let alone understand it]
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.... I really dont have time for this nonsense, but your post is chock full of SO many errors, it drives me nutz. "Got back from my hunting gathering. Way back when we started the computer creation discussion my underlying point was that the computer is a very complex mechanism and definitely was created (it did not evolve on its' own, spontaneously). On this we can agree. I would say the same for all of the things that science has provided for us. Medicines, space craft, fine cars, artificial body parts, and the list goes on and on. But all of these inventions were made through the design process and there was external intelligence applied to their discovery, planning, and production. In fact maybe all of the things that have appeared in the last several years were created by intelligent design. Science has shown us this pattern of creation for over 100 years. So far so good. We believe this because it is obvious. " Error #1 - we do NOT believe it because it is obvious. We believe it because we have incredibly strong evidence that these things were in fact created. We can divide things into 2 classes here. Things which ARE created, and things which are NOT created. CLEARLY.... computers ARE created and belong in that CLASS BECAUSE of the mound of evidence backing this assertion, NOT because its simply "obvious". "Now on the other hand we are asked to accept the assertion that everything else was developed in a different way. Evolution." Error #2 - evolution does not assert that EVERYTHING else was developed in a different way. "In other words everything changes at the point of proof of development." Error #3 - No one claimed this. " But at this point nothing can really be proven on either side and both sides are saying accept our position on the basis of faith." Error #4 - a VASTLY empty assertion. Evolutions certainly do NOT ask you to accept anything on faith. They ask you to accept on the MASSIVE PILES OF AVAILABLE evidence which you seem to be totally ignorant of. " There is some claimed evidence for evolution and some claimed for creation. " Error #5 - There *IS* evidence of evolution, not just claimed evidence like creationism. To dispute this would be like claiming that you cant breed dogs to be smaller or larger. Nature has the same effect on animals when the environment changes "If you scrape away all of the psuedo reasoning on either side it all boils down to whether you believe in or reject God and nothing more." Error #6 - Another hugely unsupported assertion. "Some totally reject the bible as untrustworthy and just babbel but then they would have to claim the Jews don't exist because there is some in the bible about them and yet they claim the bible is completely erroneous." Error #7 - this is the fallacy of the excluded middle. Its absolutely possible that jews exist AND that jesus was not god. They are not mutually exclusive. " I could go on with many many irrefutable facts and statements in the bible ," You could go on with many more ERRORS, and thats about it " like the Jew example to start with. Obviously those making these claims are a bit off base, at least to reasonable people. Actually there are mountains of evidence that the bible is very accurate and reliable but those rejecting God make fools of themselves by rejecting everything in the book." Error #8 - You cant claim that people who reject god reject everything in the bible. Even I dont reject everything in the bible, just the fairy tale parts. Error #9 - The bible being accurate in some parts does not make it accurate in all parts. "Theists are often asked "who created God?". I now ask. Whatever blew up in the big bang must have been very large and how long do you figure it took for that massive mass to evolve or was it created?" Error #10 - Fallacy, argument from ignorance. You need to study big bang theory. This does not gell with Big Bang theory at all. " Does decay dating go back beyond the mass that blew up to tell us when it started to evolve or did decay dating change at the time of the explosion? They try to tell us decay dating hasn't changed in 3-14 billion years but where is the proof for that. " Error #11 - Arguing from ignorance. Get the facts on decay dating. "As you can see the evolutionists want you to exhibit a massive amount of faith on very little proof."" Error #12 - Another hugely unsupported assertions. You purposefully IGNORE the massive amounts of evolutionary evidence. A dump truck full of the collected data would probably be large enough to squash you to bits if it were dumped on your physical body, and yet you have the nerve to claim its "very little proof". More ignorance of science. Evolution is the CORNER STONE of all biological sciences and our medicine. "Non-life to life, nothing to something, something out of nothing all sound like miracles to me so why not just believe in the King of miracles." Error #13 - This one is funny. It translates to: Since the complexities of the universe confuse me, I might as well believe in the biggest fable of all time. OK... im REALLY going to try and stay away because I should NOT even have to address posts like this full of so many false assumptions, errors, blatant ignorance of scientific theory. and empty assertions. 13 errors in a single post, and I could probably find more If I took my time. Why do I bother? I really shouldn't. Going to get some work done instead. peace axeman
How sad and ironic. I went to cnn.com to take a break from this thread and what is the FIRST thing I see? SIX DIE IN CHURCH BUS CRASH You guys have one hell of a nice, protective, caring god there Oh the absurdity... If he exists...he is a fu**ing bastard of highest proportions. I was thinking the same thing when I saw a horribly deformed child last night at dinner. My heart sank so deeply. If anyone gives me the old, god works in mysterious ways line, I think I will go postal. peace axeman