2020: Butterfly Spread Thread

Discussion in 'Options' started by .sigma, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. .sigma

    .sigma

    Thanks for the comment.

    Well I do look at the vol statistics of the underlying at hand. I do measure IVR, IV, IV%tile, HV, ATR, BBWidth, and learning the ACD method now.

    But as far as trading term structure (calendars/diagonals) and even vol-strips I haven't done. Or like you said, maybe just unaware.

    But slick dudes like sle, Dest, TBS have these sophisticated models that model vol "better" than platforms like TOS, IB, tastyworks?

    Idk really, I don't dwell on it much. Just learn as much as I can daily, and apply that to my account. I'm focused on my P/L, and all the statistics hovering around those Profit and Loss numbers.
     
    #31     Jan 30, 2020

  2. Yeah there are times I short the straddle and after vols come in or some decay I slap on the wings for a credit FLY and let it run a bit more to see if I can increase the profit. I do not start out planning to FLY off my short straddle when I have done them but they become an adjustment "option"
     
    #32     Jan 30, 2020

  3. Start small......IV is often equivalent to time in a way. When IV decreases a FLY value goes up, just like when time passes a FLY value goes up assuming underlying is not making a huge move.

    So to buy a FLY you would like IV to be relatively high so you pay relatively less for the FLY. If IV comes down the FLY will increase in value even if little time passes. One can look at months were IV is inflated due to skews or earning announcement and use FLY as event trades like for calendars.
     
    #33     Jan 30, 2020
    ironchef and .sigma like this.
  4. taowave

    taowave

    We talked about this before.

    What you are stating is true for ATM flys and their neighbors

    Its not true for OTM flys..The relationship starts to invert

    Far OTM Flys are long vega..

    Think abut it..If you are long an ATM fly you would love for the stock to do absolutely nothing and sit there like a lump..

    If you are long a far OTM fly,you need high vol for the stock to have any chance of getting to your long strikes..




     
    #34     Jan 30, 2020
    .sigma and Trade Theory like this.

  5. We may have talked about this before and if so you are still saying incorrect things.

    How so? An OTM Call Fly does not need high IV, it just needs the stock to move higher and IV could be actually falling while the stock moves higher and your FLY will increase in value.

    OTM FLY now add delta to the equation and can be looked at as purely directional if you want.

    It just takes one example to prove you wrong. An OTM FLY is mostly a directional bet and IV becomes more important if the body moves closer ATM, but you could put on an OTM Call Fly and IV could drop as the stock moves higher thus disproving your statement.
     
    #35     Jan 30, 2020
    .sigma likes this.
  6. ironchef

    ironchef

    A stock that is trending may not have high IV and may not need high IV to move there?
     
    #36     Jan 30, 2020
    taowave likes this.
  7. taowave

    taowave

    OC,you are scrambling:)
    You keep on bringing up IV and Flys and are off on your assumption
    Not all Flys go up when IV decreases.
    If you buy an far OTM fly,it will be cheaper if IV is lower.

    Doesnt make sense to add direction/delta to the equation to support your IV argument.
    Are you also saying that an ATM fly is not a directional bet?
    Why not look at all BFLY's deltahedged(flat) and isolate the IV component?

    I do agree that some Flys are way more sensitive to vol than others,but that doesnt make your statement accurate.

    Im not making it up.Just look at an option calculator.Plug and play:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
    #37     Jan 30, 2020
  8. taowave

    taowave

    Thats a good catch. What you are saying is a stock can have a very low realized vol,i.e.moving/trending the same percent per day and certainly get to the long strike of an OTM call...

    I should have been more clear and related it to IV/perception of a possible large move.I didnt want to get into realized vol vs implied,but you are dead right.

    The main point is,from an option model valuation,an OTM fly will need an increase in IVol to have it priced higher.As you increase the IV, OTM options Deltas will head north,increasing the probability of finishing ITM or being touched..


     
    #38     Jan 30, 2020
  9. ironchef

    ironchef

    Thanks. It is beginning to make some sense.

    For earning play, IV is inflated so fly is cheap but after earning, after IV is deflated the underlying likely would have moved way off and the fly would not be profitable. A correct directional bet is still necessary?
     
    #39     Jan 31, 2020
  10. ironchef

    ironchef

    @taowave and @El OchoCinco

    Are butterflies usually short duration trades? From what I read, des' butterflies are all a few days or at most a couple of weeks durations.
     
    #40     Jan 31, 2020