14th Amendment Time -- It's long overdue to keep insurrectionists off the ballot

Ricter · Mar 7, 2024

Buy1Sell2 said:
This bears repeating---
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Does not say "sole power".

Buy1Sell2 · Mar 7, 2024

Ricter said:
Does not say "sole power".
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Actually it does. It says "THE" Power and SCOTUS agreed. Democrats spent all their time impeaching Trump when they could have passed Legislation that would have enforced SEC 3.--- SCOTUS would of course have struck that down as being unconstitutional for a couple of different reasons, one being the amendment was intended for Confederates.

Ricter · Mar 7, 2024

Buy1Sell2 said:
Democrats spent all their time impeaching Trump
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Not just Democrats.

Buy1Sell2 · Mar 7, 2024

Ricter said:
Not just Democrats.
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Democrats and RINOs. They could have been crafting Legislation to disqualify Trump. Too bad, Too sad.

vanzandt · Mar 7, 2024

Frederick Foresight said:
Hardly. If Trump gets taken out it will be an inside job by a tag team of stealthy assassins:

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Just sit back and wait.

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You and Titanic really need to work on some new material. because Freddie, your comedic writing abilities are waning fast. Step back and regroup.

CaptainObvious · Mar 8, 2024

Frederick Foresight said:
Hardly. If Trump gets taken out it will be an inside job by a tag team of stealthy assassins:

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Just sit back and wait.

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The diet of a champion. You guys must accept reality. This man ain't normal. He somehow dodges every bullet. If the powers that be allow a Trump v. Joe election you're looking at a Trump presidency and a very violent response from the mostly peaceful left.

Frederick Foresight · Mar 8, 2024

CaptainObvious said:
The diet of a champion. You guys must accept reality. This man ain't normal. He somehow dodges every bullet. If the powers that be allow a Trump v. Joe election you're looking at a Trump presidency and a very violent response from the mostly peaceful left.
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It's good to have a dream. Keep at it.

El OchoCinco · Mar 9, 2024

Cuddles said:
you gotta agree this was bullshit tho:

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The last part is hyperbole because if somone stormed the Capitol and was arrested and then ran for US Senator, they could be barred from holding office but a State court is not.going to decide on a federal position voted on by the people or that could be enforced by the Dept of Justice.

Its time to convict him of something (indictment is not a conviction) if dems want a legal leg to stand on to prevent him from running. A civil fraud suit in NY doesnt disqualify him and people .still want to vote for him. He beat the system because we have a stupid electorate who vote the.way social media tells them.

Its sad....

I think there is a reason the AG or DOJ didnt make a case to disqualify trump from office at the correct federal level because it was not a slam dunk case.

Congress can give 14th A teeth but they cant tie their shies....look how they acted during the SoTU speech and the vapid queef they had give the rebuttal.

El OchoCinco · Mar 9, 2024

Cuddles said:
At first I was excited, then disappointed; bolded for relevance. My reading is that while congress already found him engaging in insurrection (incitement), they still need to pass another bill that barrs him. If I'm reading Sotomayor right, Section3 says you need 2/3 on both houses to remove an insurrection conviction (until now, ostensibly having been brought through federal court). He's been found engaging of insurrection by Congress w/a simple majority, adding another bill on top w/a simple majority that could clear him by not reaching threshold of simple majority makes the 2/3 requirement of the text nonsensical and invalid. Why require bill barring on top of bill having engaged in if said bill could clear him w/o a 2/3 majority needed to remove said finding?

Ocho?

The Supreme Court today ruled unanimously that states may not exclude Donald Trump from this year's presidential ballot based on the claim that he "engaged in insurrection" by inciting the Capitol riot on January 6, 2021. "Because the Constitution makes Congress, rather than the States, responsible for enforcing Section 3 [of the 14th Amendment] against federal officeholders and candidates," the Court says in Trump v. Anderson, the Colorado Supreme Court erred by applying that provision to the former president and barring him from the ballot.

That conclusion is not suprising given the misgivings the justices expressed when they considered the case last month. The issue that drew the most attention during oral arguments was whether states have the authority to independently enforce Section 3 in federal elections. By focusing on that question, the Court avoids delving into the issue of how to characterize the Capitol riot or Trump's role in it.

Section 3, which was aimed at preventing former Confederates from returning to public office after the Civil War, says: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."

The Supreme Court's per curiam opinion endorses the interpretation of Section 3 that Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase embraced the year after the 14th Amendment was ratified. Chase, acting as the circuit justice for Virginia, noted that implementing Section 3 requires determining "what particular individuals are embraced" by that provision. "To accomplish this ascertainment and ensure effective results," he added, "proceedings, evidence, decisions, and enforcements of decisions, more or less formal, are indispensable."

The Constitution "empowers Congress to prescribe how those determinations should be made," the Supreme Court says. "The relevant provision is Section 5, which enables Congress, subject of course to judicial review, to pass 'appropriate legislation' to 'enforce' the Fourteenth Amendment."

The opinion quotes Sen. Jacob Howard (R–Mich.), who explained during the debate over the 14th Amendment that Section 5 "casts upon Congress the responsibility of seeing to it, for the future, that all the sections of the amendment are carried out in good faith." The Court also notes that Sen. Lyman Trumbull (R–Ill.) said congressional legislation was necessary to keep former Confederates out of public office. Consistent with that view, Congress approved the Enforcement Act of 1870, which "authorized federal district attorneys to bring civil actions in federal court to remove anyone holding nonlegislative office—federal or state—in violation of Section 3" and "made holding or attempting to hold office in violation of Section 3 a federal crime."

This case "raises the question whether the States, in addition to Congress, may also enforce Section 3," the Court says. "We conclude that States may disqualify persons holding or attempting to hold state office. But States have no power under the Constitution to enforce Section 3 with respect to federal offices, especially the Presidency."

Federal officials "owe their existence and functions to the united voice of the whole, not of a portion, of the people," the Court notes, quoting a 1995 decision involving term limits. "Powers over their election and qualifications" therefore "must be specifically 'delegated to, rather than reserved by, the States.'" Yet "nothing in the Constitution delegates to the States any power to enforce Section 3 against federal officeholders and candidates." The terms of the 14th Amendment "speak only to enforcement by Congress, which enjoys power to enforce the Amendment through legislation pursuant to Section 5."

That reservation of power, the Court says, is consistent with the general thrust of the 14th Amendment, which says states may not "abridge privileges or immunities, deprive persons of life, liberty, or property without due process, deny equal protection, or deny male inhabitants the right to vote." It would be "incongruous," the opinion says, "to read this particular Amendment as granting the States the power—silently no less—to disqualify a candidate for federal office."

The Constitution does "authorize States to conduct and regulate congressional and Presidential elections," the Court concedes. "But there is little reason to think that these Clauses implicitly authorize the States to enforce Section 3 against federal officeholders and candidates. Granting the States that authority would invert the Fourteenth Amendment's rebalancing of federal and state power."

The last sentence of Section 3, the Court says, reinforces the impression that Congress alone has that authority. It "empowers Congress to 'remove' any Section 3 'disability' by a two-thirds vote of each house," the opinion notes. "The text imposes no limits on that power, and Congress may exercise it any time, as the respondents concede. In fact, historically, Congress sometimes exercised this amnesty power postelection to ensure that some of the people's chosen candidates could take office. But if States were free to enforce Section 3 by barring candidates from running in the first place, Congress would be forced to exercise its disability removal power before voting begins if it wished for its decision to have any effect on the current election cycle."

The Court thinks it is telling that the Colorado voters who challenged Trump's eligibility failed to identify "any tradition of state enforcement of Section 3 against federal officeholders or candidates in the years following ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment." States "did disqualify persons from holding state offices following ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment," the opinion observes. "That pattern of disqualification with respect to state, but not federal offices provides 'persuasive evidence of a general understanding' that the States lacked enforcement power with respect to the latter."

If the Colorado Supreme Court were correct in concluding otherwise, we would probably not get "a uniform answer consistent with the basic principle that 'the President…represent all the voters in the Nation," the justices say. "Conflicting state outcomes concerning the same candidate could result not just from differing views of the merits, but from variations in state law governing the proceedings that are necessary to make Section 3 disqualification determinations." The upshot "could well be that a single candidate would be declared ineligible in some States, but not others, based on the same conduct (and perhaps even the same factual record)."

Justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, and Ketanji Brown Jackson concurred in the result. But they filed a separate opinion that faults their colleagues for deciding more than was necessary to resolve the case. They agree that allowing each state to decide whether a given presidential candidate is disqualified under Section 3 "would create a chaotic state-by-state patchwork, at odds with our Nation's federalism principles." That conclusion, they say, would have been sufficient reason to overrule the Colorado Supreme Court.

But the majority went further, they argue, by holding that "a disqualification for insurrection can occur only when Congress enacts a particular kind of legislation pursuant to Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment." That conclusion, they add, "shuts the door on other potential means of federal enforcement. We cannot join an opinion that decides momentous and difficult issues unnecessarily, and we therefore concur only in the judgment."

Sotomayor et al. argue that the text of Section 3 suggests the majority is wrong to conclude that candidates can be barred as insurrectionists only through congressional legislation. "Section 3 provides that when an oathbreaking insurrectionist is disqualified, 'Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability,'" they write. "It is hard to understand why the Constitution would require a congressional supermajority to remove a disqualification if a simple majority could nullify Section 3's operation by repealing or declining to pass implementing legislation."

Sotomayor et al. also suggest that the majority opinion misrepresents Trumbull's position on Section 3. The majority, they say, "neglects to mention the Senator's view that 't is the [F]ourteenth [A]mendment that prevents a person from holding office,' with the proposed legislation simply 'affor[ding] a more efficient and speedy remedy' for effecting the disqualification."

The majority's position "forecloses judicial enforcement of [Section 3], such as
might occur when a party is prosecuted by an insurrectionist and raises a defense on that score," Sotomayor et al. write. "The majority further holds that any legislation to enforce this provision must prescribe certain procedures 'tailor[ed]' to Section 3, ruling out enforcement under general federal statutes requiring the government to comply with the law."

By resolving a question it did not need to reach, "the majority attempts to insulate all alleged insurrectionists from future challenges to their holding federal office," Sotomayor et al. say. "It reaches out to decide Section 3 questions not before us, and to foreclose future efforts to disqualify a Presidential candidate under that provision. In a sensitive case crying out for judicial restraint, it abandons that course."

Justice Amy Coney Barrett also wrote a separate opinion concurring in the judgment. "I agree that States lack the power to enforce Section 3 against Presidential candidates," she says. "That principle is sufficient to resolve this case, and I would decide no more than that. This suit was brought by Colorado voters under state law in state court. It does not require us to address the complicated question whether federal legislation is the exclusive vehicle through which Section 3 can be enforced."
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Its a lot to read but the only claim I supported is that a state court cannot make a determination about a constitution amendment Section regarding the president in an election. It goes against a lot of Constitutional principles.

It still is not clear what action congress can take to take action on that clause and congress is so divided i dont see any attempt coming soon. Whatever law they enact to maybe enforce the provision will come under attack anyway.

El OchoCinco · Mar 9, 2024

CaptainObvious said:
Step away from the remote Bob, we're going to change the channel. No more MSNBC for the day. Breathe Bob, deep breaths, breeeeeathe.
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one thing we can all agree on, when trump takes office he is going to continue to believe he cab do whatever he wants without any checks on his power while taking revenge. Eveb worse he still feels he needs to cater to the far fringe right eveb after he is elected because he needs idol worshippers.

No way Trump mellows.as he turns 80 and senility increases...