I have absolutely NO connection with TopStepTrader at all - not in the past (I've never even done a Combine), not in the present and not in the future (I'm not in their target demographic) ... and for the record, I've also previously made comments critical of TST in this forum.
Strange forum, this ... I wasn't expecting to be accused of "being TopStepTrader", but, thinking about it, it does make a change from being accused of "being Al Brooks posting under another name", which I've also been accused of a couple of times just because I'm an enthusiast of his books and I say so openly. Strange place ... You can criticise and whine and moan and complain and defame people/services/companies as much as you like, here. But apparently you can't be an admirer of anything, or make enthusiastic comments, or even correct factual misinformation, without openly being accused of being a shill! Bizarre. Probably I'm just "in the wrong place" ...
I hear you Zela, you are one of the few who try and help the newbies and engage in intelligent conversation about trading. But this place is knee deep in negativity and poor behavior. Hard to see the point of it sometimes.
Actually it is my question. Why is it relevant that joe blow with drew $200 after paying tst $160 a month for months or years to do that ? Numbers are my life and in the end that's all that matters in trading. My point remains that all of these stories are pointless since they don't even produce a livable wage considering the amount of time and money these traders are spending with the company. After 7 years not one trader from there has put up numbers worth talking about. Why do you think this still remains true ? One of my biggest issues with tst is if you jump through all the hoops and build your account, they still keep you handcuffed with certain rules even when it is only your earned money at stake. I think this is the number one reason why so many burn out and fail and why ones that do make it live withdraw any earnings and still leave the program.
I do take your point, but judging by the number of people you see in forums, and on their blogs, saying that for them the main benefit of using TST's service isn't actually the "attempt to get funded" component (which always surprises me, but it's undeniably so - I've seen many people in this very forum saying exactly that!), I suppose that is relevant? Same here. To be honest, I agree entirely (but my instincts - like anyone's - may be biased by my own personal experience and are not necessarily representative of those among the wider trading community). This I don't agree with at all, for two main reasons, both of which become very clear from reading the pages I linked to in my post above. First, many are not trying (in the short term) to "produce a livable wage" but to add to one they already have (i.e. they're part-timers trying to make a few hundred extra). Secondly, many are in countries in which what you or I probably spend on going out for one good dinner, where we live, is a pretty livable wage. TST publishes versions of its own blog in English and in Russian. Because of the customer demographics involved, I guess. Traders who are making a living do that for themselves, anyway. Long-term trading is all about risk-management. My own self-imposed "handcuffs", in the sense you're using the word, are far tighter than TST's. TST's wouldn't be relevant to me at all. I can't prove it, of course, but it's no stretch at all for me to imagine that that's also true of many/most of their successfully funded traders. And there's also the inescapable reality that anything that has no entry-barrier at all is bound to have rather a high fail-rate, isn't it? No disrespect intended, Volente, but I suspect that you're looking at TST solely from your own perspective and aren't really aware of all these points. Nobody's suggesting that it should necessarily be suitable for you (just as it isn't for me).
I actually agree with Xela's post above and have pointed out the same months ago: TST is good for people in countries where the cost of living is much less than in the USA and/or opening a broker account is problematic. In most East European countries a single guy can live easily on 1K per month. Also, because of the time difference, they can have a regular job and still trade the US hours. Of course TST isn't going to get huge profit shares from them, but that is a valid use of TST. If you are a 14 year old in Russia/China, combine away!!! (By the way I wonder who is their youngest funded trader?) Edit: I have just looked up the average salary in Mexico, it is less than 13K per year. So Volente, you should be fine in Playa.
And then Speedo quotes one year ago the complete opposite, you mean intelligent conversion by having the memory of a knat, that's not intelligent, that's IYI. https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/the-biggest-news-ever-to-hit-elitetrader.297330/#post-4234677 The purpose of trading is incredibly simple, making money, income or capital. TST nor any other of the public prop firms are putting themselves out as mentors or academies. With a >90% failure rate, it is pyramiding is the greatest sense of the word. The moderators don't care, as below, so it comes down to people with ethics to restore a sense of balance. "If I were a betting person, I would say that one username is used from the home computer and the other one is used on that same person's mobile device, hence the radically different IPs. The problem is that I can't prove it." So here's an interesting side point, before I posted the Xela = TopStepTrader post, I ignored both of them, they should not be able to see that post, yet they know it's there. The next logical question, how many other usernames is TopStepTrader using. Let's go and take a look. So volente_00 has been calling out TST for a few years now, disagreements with VPhantom, WMorin was definitely a TST username, and a few others I can't be bothered to look in to because it's already very simple. Their scheme is pyramiding for fees hiding the failure rate, that flows in to their social media and marketing, as shown here. Everything works from the top down, garbage in garbage out. And the statement about cheaper cost of living is stupid, Eastern Europe average income is €500/mth in some countries, no sane person is going to spend $150/mth on combine with a >90% failure rate unless it's hidden from them. Here's the problem, I am one of the worlds experts in data exploration, never make me go and research something, I will unravel pyramids at lightening speed, to the point in one of the largest companies in the world where I found a completely obscured $50bn hole, oil reserves. Even the wording "Mike Patek, the company founder and owner had been a long time trader at the Chicago Board of Trade and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange", all worded to perfection to imply a floor trader for marketing but in reality just needing to trade CME futures from his desk. That is the world of implying to generate business, in law beyond reasonable doubt is enough, and that is exactly what we have here. There's some seriously questionable practices going on in these forums, various users have "insider access knowledge", you can just spend a few minutes filtering through the posts and all sorts of nasty stuff comes up cross referencing itself. Intelligent is helping the next generation grow like our inhouse, not pyramiding them to generate income for a public facing business due to so little transparency they're not told there's a 91% failure rate, and that is exactly the business process of TST. They are a pathetic excuse for a business.
I hate to break it to you, but if you ignore someone, they still can see your posts and even comment on it. You can not see theirs, that is how it works. That is a pretty ignorant statement combined with faulty logic. A double whammy... First, obviously there are plenty of Russians combining (there is a Russian version of the website), thus unless you think they are all well to do Russians, your assumption of East Europeans not being able to afford the combine is wrong. Second, if they are smart, they did free practice runs first, thus they have a good idea if they are able to pass the combine or not. Thus the fee is simple an investment on their behalf, not to mention for years if you passed the combine you got the fee back. (so it was free for good traders) Don't believe me, go ahead and read the traders' profiles and you will see half of them are from low cost living countries... Third, and let's repeat it again, it makes complete sense, because even if the guy only makes only $2-300 a month, that is a huge help for the family budget. There, not here in the USA. A Ukrainian trader only needs to make $200/month to match their average salary. Bottom line is, it is worth the effort for foreigners, not so much for Americans.... http://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/salaries-and-costs-of-living-in-ukraine/ Edit: I changed this last stats to Ukraine, because apparently they have quite a few funded traders from there.
That's not how everyone has been explained ignore works, but there you go. On a 9% chance of success, it's smarter they put their $150 on a Roulette Corner bet. Risk management and probability distribution obviously isn't your forte. Anyway, back to the topic. The problem is with their, and similar companies, indirect business practices. Part of the checks and balances in the corporate world, a company needs to make sure that they have refund policies so that they can prove more than 50% of their revenue (realistically 70%-100%) comes from successful deployment of their service or product. When a company has the majority of their revenue from the losses of their subscribers it is very simple, it's illegal. Now, many of these companies are still trading because they fall in a grey area, they do not provide due process to participants for fair and reasonable transparency, however they are not accredited by any governance and do not have any professional industry liability, so are never directly picked up. This is a fascinating read http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-firms/176392-top-step-trader.html But this is the most insightful "I did reach out directly to TopStep Trader and attempted to curate this data. But what I was given can only be described as a highly skewed and colorful representation of statistical fiction. In short, it was crap." - https://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/topstep-trader-update-survey/ A $1,145 fee for ~90% failure rate (given the quoted stat of 50% funded fail), but also that these aspiring traders lose 6months of their lives with no direct mentoring and no income in that time, but with TST generating $3.5mn in fees based on their websites current 52 funded traders per month stat. This is one such example, there are many others doing this. Richard Dennis and the Turtles had a 95% passthrough success rate (the professional approach), that has always been our reference point inhouse. It is just as well all the new regs are being released to put these companies out of business, it is long overdue.
Wow, what a wall of text, none of it is addressing my explanation why they have so many funded traders from poorer countries. Anyhow, generally I agree with you, you don't have to convince me. But I also tend to be objective and give out lollipops when they are deserved. If TST can help a Russian guy to buy more groceries for his family, I applaud them. Also, here is how you mess with stats: TST's 5 year failure rate is 100%, since there is no trader who has been funded for 5 consecutive years. (If there was, my apologies and they should advertise the guy.) <<<< here I am just making a point again about reference time frames ----------------------------------- Offtopic, by the way, but I found it funny on your profile page: "birzosDone here, the road to wealth is time management, not wasting time dealing with stupid people." That was back in November. You really thought you can leave ET? This time blackhole is more addictive than heroin.