This is how bad the IB Margin calculator and Support are

Discussion in 'Interactive Brokers' started by Chubbly, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Chubbly

    Chubbly

    I wanted to create a Debit spread in ES near ATM so I decided to try a few different months. The margin calculator showed wildly different Initial Margin amounts between July and Dec
    I called Support.
    I sent them the screen shots.
    They bounced me between 3 agents. Every Time I had to explain everything again. It was painful.
    I can only lose $75 on this spread. I kept having to explain what a Debit spread was. Then I had to keep telling them that the Initial Margin was different between contract months

    They all kept saying that this is correct.......

    Error-3.jpg Error-4.jpg
     
  2. Sig

    Sig

    Welcome to the sh%*tshow that is IB "customer service"! Note, most of the people at IB can't comprehend the concept of maximum possible loss on a spead, or they're purposely obtuse when you point out errors in their software like this. Note that IB does charge margin on ES debit spreads in addition to requiring you to put down the entire cost of the spread. Their software is too stupid to understand you have a spread so it does the SPAN calc on each leg separately and adds them together. To avoid this just always trade the opposite credit spread. Also if bid/ask spreads get out of whack they will autoliquidate you even though it's impossible to lose more than you put down to purchase a vertical debit spread. You can fool this little bit of stupidity by putting your own GTC order in for just beyond the max value of the spread. Or better yet, avoid these jackasses like the plague and go with literally any other broker!
     
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  3. tommcginnis

    tommcginnis

    It's correct.
    It's a CFTC thing, not an IB thing.
    But it's well known, and IB (and hereafter, you) should know better.

    ES FOPs are physical delivery -- if you "win", you buy the Future Contract.
    Do you have sufficient funds?
    (Let's call that Test #1.)
    The Future (September or December) settle into cash.
    (Let's call that Test #2.)

    Not bad, yet, right?
    Now, the July31s FOPs are European Settlement.
    (Not surprising, right? I mean, it's an *index* ferchrisake.)
    Howsomeever, the Dec15s are American, and can be exercised at any time -- Yowie!)

    So, the implications for Test #2 depend on which FOP week you're writing.
    Write it the Quarterly expiry, and you trigger Test #1 because of the possibility (no matter how ill-advised) of "American" early exercise.

    What are the implications?

    They're right there, in your (very nicely done) screen shots.

    This is not the most esoteric thing out there; the IBers you spoke to should've known this.
    But now, whenever you have a question?? Do the ol' Right Click on that puppy, and see what the trading guts are all about.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  4. tommcginnis

    tommcginnis

    And, just to chime in,

    SPAN IS THE ANTICHRIST.

    There. I said it. CFTC is the Grima Wormtongue of financial regulation; SPAN is the true Soruman behind the spell. TWS is just a tired, once-gallant King called Théoden... If you trade the SPX, you can avoid the poisoned parts.....
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  5. Sig

    Sig

    If it's American then if one of your legs exercises you can simply exercise the other and you'll be flat with the max loss of what you paid for the spread. Is this really a CFTC requirement that they hold margin out equal to the cost of purchasing the underlying if exercised? That doesn't sound right, because its not required on the European weeklies that expire into the underlying and if the index closes inside your spread you'll have to take delivery.
     
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  6. Ryan81

    Ryan81

    Was going to respond, but Tom slipped in and gave a great explanation.
    Basically with the Dec options on futures, the buyer of the short side of your spread can choose to exercise at any time... and you need enough margin to be prepared for that.
     
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  7. xandman

    xandman

    IBKR penalizes you for going too far back. IV has a broader range in the back months..

    Same goes for futures spreads that span more than a year. The margins are ridiculous.
     
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  8. tommcginnis

    tommcginnis

    Like, when you're skiing for Christmas in that little Alpine valley (the one without cell coverage, and no landline or cable, but with the $30,000 chalet that you've funded with your fantastical [or fantesticle] trading), and over dinner, you hear that Putin's last ICBM sub slipped under the Arctic ice "Red October"-style, and just surfaced heading under the Golden Gate Bridge, and we're at DefCon-25 (which reads as "Really Really Angry" on the scale posted in the lavatory off of the subterranean White House Situation Room)..... and World Markets have tanked, and your short put has been exercised (well -- yours AND EVERYONE ELSE'S), and IB tried to reach you, and and and......... and it's a bad day.

    IB don't *like* "bad days".....
     
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  9. Chubbly

    Chubbly

    Here is the same spread on ToS. They calculate the way I thought it would be
    I wonder how are they getting around that American vs European settlement then?

    I can do the same trade on IB with SPY which are American settlement and no crazy margin issue.

    Error-5.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  10. tommcginnis

    tommcginnis

    I can't say for ToS, but I do love the "...there may be liquidity and settlement risks that you are not aware of" line. Sweet! Gimme somma dat love! (But surely, don't put CLIENT MONEY there. Or Grandma's. Or anybodyelseIcareabout....)

    Anywho, regardless of platform/broker, SPY and SPX options are both SEC-governed, taking the evil SPAN out of the equation. AND your (Globex) commissions are less than half of ES-FOPs.
     
    #10     Feb 16, 2017
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