Hi, I am 24 and I have been trading since the first year at uni (since 2008) CME and ICE commodities and currencies (Forex due to account size). I am positive in trading and with ups and downs from time to time. I finished my academic studies a year ago, and cotinuously developed my trading style and reasearched, researched, and researched. Right now, I am emotionally ready to work as a trader for a company but I have no idea where to start. My trading style can be described as day or mid-term trading. The time that passed between opened and closed positions is between 1 and 6 weeks (2 weeks on average). In terms of location, I am quite geographically mobile but considering I have an EU passport the easiets entry would be in London or Amsterdam. So I will be glad if someone can recommend me a place where to start with. Which companies are hiring starting traders? Are there any pre-requirements for working as a trader in the UK or in the Netherlands (licence/certificate etc)? What should I expect when apply for trading companies? For example I heard that there are special tests I can prepare for at http://tradertest.org/, are there any other tests I should be ready for? To be fair I don't have that much capital to chip in myself so I cannot afford to place 20,000 pounds just for training. Most of my money were spent on education. So far I found a list of different companies but I don't know who is just training and who is offering their own capital so I will appreciate your insight: http://yangfr.blog.hexun.com/49687912_d.html http://www.virtu.com/working-here/ http://www.pynetrading.com/tradertraining.html http://ldn-capital.co.uk/trading-career.html http://www.schneidertrading.com/ So far I feel that my main need is not a basic education of trading but an environment where I can master and develop my trading style by learning and receive capital to make money for myself and the company (a rev. share). Thank you
Better to get a proper job in asset management or a bank and work yourself up from there than join a prop firm.
Haven't worked prop yet, but honestly, just knowing some PM's and guys at firms and starting to look that way? Best thing I can say? KNOW YOUR PERFORMANCE STATS And work on improving them Nothing, absolutely nothing in this business matters, beyond consistent performance. I hear a firm is interested in me being interested in sports, or dogs, or cats or anything other than performance? It instantly puts a question in my mind. Math tests? I could give a rip about my math prowess (though lately, I'm having side fun with polyharmonic data splines). I enjoy math, but that doesn't really make me a better trader, because I can mess around with varied data set relationships. Know your Sharpe Ratio. Know your risks at all times. Know your Sortino. What's your BPS for a given time frame? Duration of trades vs. leverage in that time period. That's the stuff that matters. Firms, from my short-experience in looking at them, tend to be pretty laser focused on periodicity. But if you trade in their time-frames, and you have good numbers? Puts you in the driver seat.
Agreed that this how it should be. BUT: 1) sometimes (most of the times) you can enter only as a junior so you will be tested 2) there always can be a test apart from your performance analysis And what I find about IMC, Virtu and others, they have 1) training period 2)assesment center 3)they take even those who have a bit of experience. It makes sense: you always need to be trained to perform as they want and better and it is harder to re-teach than to teach someone who has no knowledge.
Traders that get hired these days are C++ programmers. But since you did a lot of research you already knew that, right? No way a push button BUY SELL human is getting hired these days. You need to be 10+ years experienced C++ low latency programmer or it's not happening. Good luck.
It's true that everyone has to start somewhere. I've never traded prop, but I'm not opposed to the idea. I know if I started remote trading with a firm, they're not going to hand me the keys of the kingdom on day one simply because of my past stats. But at the same time, you should "do for you". In other words, work on what makes you so desirable. One firm asked me for a resume'. My reply was pretty simple. No. No, you don't need that. What you need to know is I have two approaches ... First approach is 4.602% 2014 as of May 18, 2014 YTD, with a Sharpe Ratio of 2.493 as of May 18, 2014 YTD using a higher RFR of 0.75% annual. No Leverage, Maximum Drawdown of 1.5851%, About 9% cash with broker statements. Second approach is harder to scale up, but 6.53% 2014 as of May 18, 2014 YTD, Sharpe Ratio of 3.19 as of May 18, 2014 YTD measured weekly using a higher RFR of 0.75% annual, Options used (Covered), Maximum Drawdown of 0.50%. And of course, broker statements for verification. The immediately replied, and wanted to talk more. Which we did at length. They were focused on shorter periodicities than I trade, so we both agreed that I would be a bad fit for them. But the point is still the same. Nothing speaks louder than performance. Any firm can want to talk to me about my hobbies, and what my cats name is, and all that other stuff. I'm the guy with the rock-star performance, and I don't want to be a haughty jerk, but none of that other stuff matters in the end. They're the folks with the larger capital. The other stuff doesn't matter. It just doesn't. The performance puts me in the drivers seat. I hear stuff I don't like? I walk. Hey, I got my own book I can manage. They hear stuff they don't like? They don't have to take me, and they walk, and good for them if they do. All I'm saying ... is that your best tool, your best advantage that changes thing completely in your favor? Is your performance stats. You work on improving those? The conversation goes between two professionals (one of which is you) who can help each other out, rather than someone looking to the other person for "work".
Adar, let me help you out there before someone leads you off a cliff. Out of school, you need to have pedigree. No one is going to hire you as a trader, they are going to hire you as an assistant, junior analyst, back office, etc. Unfortunately these are real jobs and require real skills and yes, require real math and in some cases, some programming. After 1 to 2 years you might be able to make it on a desk if all goes well. The focus in London and Chicago is on rates. Usually junior guys start on the overnight desk for one to two years. In Houston, the focus is on energy. There you will start off either in scheduling, back office or as an analyst. I'm only referring to the so called "proper" prop firms here, not the Futexs of the world. Once you actually HAVE experience, your track record will matter more then your pedigree. It sounds like you are in London. If you want some advice there reach out to martinhoul. I know a lot about the Chicago and NY prop firm scene, can't help you much on London.
Simply not true. It's not. Reason I got turned on to prop, is one guy who ran his own derivatives firm, saw my numbers, and was highly impressed. Knowing that I trade equities, there is nothing I can do at his firm, so he starts handing me names of people to contact. The only thing that matters is performance and fitting with a firms trading style Another guy said he'd take me on the spot, were he trading that space. Why? My performance numbers. And no, I don't know the first thing about coding. One of my approaches has a holding period of 1 month to 3 years, and is a method that goes back 70 years. I've just tweaked it a bit using non-correlations. But consistency of performance is the only thing that matters in this field. And no, I don't say the above to brag. Merely to highlight the importance of skill, and how loudly it will speak for you
Well said ... and it's a fair point. Just out of school, and the stats aren't up to snuff, all of the above is absolutely true. Perhaps it's just the bias of my own world-view. Just floors me watching people spend so much time on other stuff, when they could be working on improving the one thing that matters ... performance ... In addition, it just sorta bugs me when newcomers read HFT stuff, and then think that the days of a human making all of the decisions with skill is over.