This thread is in response to a post in another thread, which if serious has several points for important discussion. (I have added numbers to the original post) The post was: "1. I suppose Christians live morally sound lives. 2. They do good when they can and never do bad. 3. Suppose I live a morally sound life too. I do good when I can and never do bad. 4. Yet I cannot believe there is any such thing as an immortal deity. Then I suppose if I'm wrong about gods 5. you will see me burn forever. Well that's nice, many thanks." source: https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/moving-from-darkness-to-light.375399/page-3#post-5860696
You have to back up your statement with data / facts / numbers. There were known cases where Christians kill / murder innocent people. Look at what those missionaries did to the native Indians in Canada. No one knew the truth until many centuries later.
Dear tomorton Thank-you for your post. You bring up many valid points. In the last few months I have (on a personal level) become more intensely studious of teachings of the Way and watched many videos. I have realized that I should not label myself as "Christian" - so I am now choosing to use "follower of Jesus". It is extremely sad to see what organized religion has done. Further it is my belief that Jesus never wanted a religion and never wanted a "church" (here I mean an organization - set of buildings, priests, power structure etc.
Hi Max, I am actually going to be arguing against the title which is not mine - but the first line of another gentleman's post. You are too fast for me!... So this is a cross-post. So I'll go on with a few posts to flesh things out. (But of course "christians" have done horrific un-christian things..) You're the fastest gun in the west!
So that I'm not going around in circles.. let me state where I am coming from: I do not believe that most people who label themselves as "christian" are following christ (aka Jesus) - nor do they really bother to study for themselves what He actually taught. Very briefly: 1. Humankind is enmeshed/caught on this planet of darkness and death. 2. Through our own works be cannot get free (that is no matter how many good deeds one does you can't break free). Indeed we are becoming more and more entrapped as time progresses. 3. "God" in compassion, seeing our dilemma, created a solution that made it POSSIBLE to break free. We (eternal souls we) were created with free-will so we always have choice to choose good or bad, right or left, more entanglement or less. But by our own efforts, alone we cannot break free . 4. He sent His "Son" on a mission: A: offer a new message to the Jews (by completing their scriptures TaNak) - which He knew they (Pharisees et all) would reject. B: defeat death through having his physical body die on the cross and rise again 3 days later. C: help people believe He was from God by doing many miracles. D: teach a new Way (New vs Old testament) E: as the new Way is so difficult a path - send to those who believe in Him a helper (aka Holy Spirit) to strengthen, teach, guide and comfort them on the extremely difficult path. to be continued...
tomorton brought up several points. My reason for replying is that I think I may understand the emotional standpoint that they come from. This is of course, not his/her doing but rather I think this is in response to the terrible "un-christian" way (and actions) that churches. priests, pastors etc have chosen mis-teach and mis-act against Jesus's teachings. It is their fault. So let's proceed with his points: "1. I suppose Christians live morally sound lives." I think you are saying they are putting themselves out as leading morally sound lives. -well of course "they" don't live morally sound lives. The story of the Rich young man makes this obvious. When this earnest young man came to him asking what to do to gain eternal life: " 16Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. ----------------------- Jesus has stated no-one even himself is "good" - only God is good. (Recall in the prior post "Humankind is enmeshed/caught on this planet of darkness and death. Of course "darkness" means spiritual darkness. Death =the entrapment on this earth or spiritual death. 2. They do good when they can and never do bad.
His second point: "2. They do good when they can and never do bad." This is building on his first point but I think that the underlying message is that those who label themselves as "christians" have this "I'm holier than you." stance. This whole "I'm holier than you" stance/attitude/expression is of course repugnant and offensive. This stance is not only offensive and incorrect but it DIRECTLY against what Jesus taught. Now Jesus did not just teach this once - but many, many times and in many ways. Each person on earth - regardless of their actions - is not better - from God's viewpoint than another. One example Jesus gave is of the two praying the priest and the sinner: Luke 18:9-13 The Pharisee and the Tax Collector 9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed,a ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’ 13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. [justified = sound, correct attitude in God's "eyes"] -------- This is only one example of many where those who think themselves holier than another are very much in error. So if point #2 is that this holier-than-thou attitude is offensive then he is 100% correct. It is not only offensive and pushes people away from learning about what Jesus actually taught it. And even more it is AGAINST what Jesus taught.
His third point: "3. Suppose I live a morally sound life too. I do good when I can and never do bad." This, I feel. can be a response to the judgemental tone he has experienced. That is no-one likes to feel judged. Jesus made it clear we are not to judge others. "Judge not" "Don't talk about the speck in another's eye while you have a log in your own eye. Take out the log first you hypocrite" "For all power of judgement has been given to me and I do not judge. I can not to judge the world but to save it. " (Key in on the last part... ===> "but to save it. Recalling from above: "B: defeat death through having his physical body die on the cross and rise again 3 days later." "Defeating Death" - means of course defeating spiritual death. The mission was to free us, or more precisely free those who choose to accept the Divine gift for we always have free will - that cannot be revoked. So we don't have to accept the gift that makes Eternal Life possible. It's our choice. The key is it wasn't possible before. "Who then can be saved? asked the 12. What is impossible for man is possible for God. ) back to the poster: It is of course, incumbent on us all to do good to each other when we can and avoid doing evil. "Love your neighbour as yourself" and this idea of striving to be good and do good is not unique to people of christianity, judasim, Islam.. and even if we choose to accept to follow Jesus, we must in addition to accepting the Divine gift we must strive to do good, be good, think of good and love. So though we are not "saved" (step on the bridge) by our own works, "faith without works is dead." And of course: "Those who love me will follow my commandments" and "There is no point crying out 'Lord, Lord' without following what I taught you" "For a man who hears my words and does not follow them is like a man who builds upon sand."
His 4th point: "4. Yet I cannot believe there is any such thing as an immortal deity." it's getting very late 7am my time and this is a big topic, so I don't think I'll get into much on this - though it is a VERY important point. Just as notes: The Old testament is done- finished. Don't focus on the 7 days bit in genesis which is symbolic. Issac Newton - perhaps the world greatest scientist believed in God, Einstein believed in God "If I come out of a forest and see trees all arranged in rows I say there must be a Creator. There is an hour long documentary by non-christians (there were fours a scientist, a mathematician, and geneticist showing that Darwin's theory does not hold But really forget all of that. What others believe - newton etc, Darwin, and on and on - is just a pig's breakfast of endless argument that takes the "conversation down the laneway and mugs it". The point is - is there a way to salvation not possible before Jesus? Well if one doesn't believe in reality beyond the physical plane, all of the above is meaningless. I have not (yet) been able to spend time on putting forth ideas that could make the message available to atheists. Since I have always known God exists it is different for me. ("known" equals intuitive knowing which is hard to explain to a hard - I only believe in what I can touch-hit-kick-and-measure person) Emotionally, I can understand the viewpoint of "look at all the evil done in the name of religions" - which is of course something I am 100% in agreement with. In another thread I tried to explain the difference between the box of religion - dogma, priests, power and hitting you over the head with "the word of God" using it like a club to subdue valid questions, but this met with zero success. And as I said above Jesus never intended a religion - that is all the priests doing. Jesus came to make salvation possible where is was not possible before. At this point I don't think I have anything useful to share - except: 1. watch some "Testimonies". These are stories that people share about their encountering Jesus -when they never believed in Him or in God. Some are just amazing. Of course, belief is not made with argument. It is a different thing. It is not intellectual. It is of the spirit. So all I can say is that if you have an emptiness in your heart, and the external world is not fulfilling you, seek. Just seek with an open mind, that is neutral (vs closed). One will have to set aside all of the emotional hurt and evil done by religions and priests to do this - and no I don't know the answer of how to do that. and 2. perhaps reading John - slowly. Simply try to understand both the message and the underlying message. That could be another starting place. Those 2 suggestions are all I have. Bottom line: I need to think more on a reply to - "I can't believe there is a deity". But I believe it is very important - so I'll work on it.
being a Christian is not about living a good life. It’s only about accepting Jesus Christ. your venn diagrams are wrong.