1. What is the typical average annual return percentage for an "average" intermediate futures trader? 2. What is the typical average annual return percentage for a "very good" experienced futures trader? 3. How common is it for a futures trader to consistently make 200% or more per year for a long time? How rare is this to achieve? 4. What is the approximate upper account size to where making 200% or more becomes mathematically impossible due to too much capital to make that kind of high return trading futures? (Something small like $500,000? Or something big like $50,000,000?) Thank you.
From 0% to bankruptcy. Average makes no sense here. It's a pareto like distribution. 20% is already very nice. From the industry. I'd say 10% ... Average. It's uncommon. Depends on the performance. Some can make without leverage, What other only achieve highly leveraged. By the way ... 500K return can represent 200% ROI as well as 10% ROI or even 1% ROI.
It is quite rare. The 200% return you speak of is quite a year; to put a string of them back to back is extraordinary. I'm not suggesting it can't be done or that it has not been done but the reality is that the word "rare" does not even begin to describe it if, as you ask, it must be done, "for a long time."
Should worry more about how much YOU can make... This question pops up so many times but who cares if a few people make 100% or 200%? I know some pitchers that can throw 98 mph, I can't. Just make money and stop worrying about what you should be making or what others are making. Until they start signing your checks what they do is irrelevant.
That is the danger with guys trying to make 100-200-500% returns in a year...One bad day, one bad hour, etc, etc...can destroy it all. Once you realize that you have that potential to absolutely blow up, it keeps you a bit more cautious. OTOH, there is a reason why some novice traders can double or triple their account in short order...Maybe they are perma-bullish in a bull market and just keep leveraging up (right time, right place)...Typically, it all comes crashing down at some point, but I've seen some crazy returns by traders who pretty much started swinging from the fences from the get go.
hmmm, Everything I have to show for myself is just the result of a few lucky trades. In my old semi retired age it would seem my returns are pretty impressive now that I am small enough to trade with no stops. But I would never re commit the serious money I made on those lucky trades. I had no choice. I couldn't do anything but trade. I was not cut out for anything else. But in my old age I see that just a simple income stream, in Warren Buffets case it was insurance premiums, but for most ordinary people it is just a job, that can make trading quite profitable. If you trade the way I do no human being on the face of the earth has enough to trade safely. It is a very risky business. But I have very little sympathy for any man that doesn't risk at least a portion of his money. If you have a job they are never going to pay you what you are worth, but they will pay you more than you need, and most of that money should be invested, and the rest should be put out at high risk.
Minus 100 to 200%, reason I say more than 100% is because for many traders they have to do over 100% return just to cover commissions. "intermediate futures trader" is like they been at it 2-4 years and working towards being breakeven. And this is for day trading. Now going to Long Term trading an "intermediate futures trader" should be profitable. Until you are making 250k, most likely still doing retail brokers, and leasing fees go up and down, so it can be little under a grand to few grand each month, then in order to make it advantage you have to be doing so much volume to get exchange fees down in like ES and the rest. You have to maintain there min balance, I have forgotten what mine is but have ample funds. When you account is under half million, you can make 100-200% plus once you figure how to day trade. Long term is much different cause until you learn how to play this game, way different than day trading, man it I been learning long term since 1985 and still learning how to expand more, I think there are many more secrets in long term than day trading and why I would not mentor anyone how to do. My accounts are greater on long term duration side than all countless hours of day trading to include all the coding for automation. Where biggest problems comes into play is how to get your size into the markets without triggering HFTs or others on going the other way, you never want to do stops as whatever size you doing will cause slippage if there is not volume at your price, and you don't want to use limits as you advertising to whole world, and protective stops-forget it, chances are I am not only one trying to get out, so fair losses can becomes huge losses. I have never had most profitable day trading more than amount of which I have lost. Now in long term trading, best you do off monthly/weekly/daily charts, as you build size, at some point you just get use to open equity swings like "Oh boy I just made a BMW or oh crap there goes a Bentley", very limited days of making/losing airplanes in one day, usually some major going on. That is rather of funny question cause some days almost unlimited volume and other days volume dries up, you have to already have the answer to the question and taking action before even thinking about it. So say you went long ES, bad news comes out and no volume to get out, what do you do? I have practiced the answer hundreds of times and even now I do twice a month, and no, won't say, but I don't have to think what to do. So to say what makes for a good trader to better trader is practicing even though something might only happen once every ten years. Hey, so long as you paying more taxes each year, you have a roof over your head, food to eat driving a nice 1958 Edsel, you are doing alright. I think the best deal around is trade your 401k and Roth accounts and enough taxable if you need that to live on, if I had to do it all over again, not even do day trading and concentrate on Long term trading and Stock/ETF options now. You just have so much to compete against in day trading and the time to get good is like WOW, I could build full house each year by myself and after handful of years be drawing money for life time, and yet in day trading, have to be behind screen. Automation way to go f you are good at knowing what works. Good luck to you.
[QUOTE="Handle123, post: 4270744 Where biggest problems comes into play is how to get your size into the markets without triggering HFTs or others on going the other way, you never want to do stops as whatever size you doing will cause slippage if there is not volume at your price, and you don't want to use limits as you advertising to whole world, and protective stops-forget it, chances are I am not only one trying to get out, so fair losses can becomes huge losses. I have never had most profitable day trading more than amount of which I have lost. Now in long term trading, best you do off monthly/weekly/daily charts, as you build size, at some point you just get use to open equity swings like "Oh boy I just made a BMW or oh crap there goes a Bentley", very limited days of making/losing airplanes in one day, usually some major going on. T.[/QUOTE] Depends on what you trade. I don't know any retail traders that have any problem getting off their ES trades during RTH. During prime hours I am told executing a couple of hundred ES contracts is not generally a problem. I would love to have problems with size; in the meantime I'll cope with it when I get there!!!
Retail also has slippage, even trading a one lot if traded at end of volume at one price level. I trade mainly ES and doing size, you look at bid/ask and times where there are less than 400 lots of volume, that not going to fill my order by hitting market order so I don't use stops as I am unwilling to chase. I trade first hour and no more, often times now I make between 6-7 points and walk away. Have to increase size when you are ready mentally and when you have ample funds in case of you or someone else doing an "OOPS" and hit 10,000 contracts.