dude.... I'm interested in Top Step but dont feel like reading 130 elite trader pages... can someone tell me if theres ANYTHING valuable/controversial/unique on this thread that I cant just learn from doing my own analysis of the firm and their terms? I know a top step trader as well, and I'm an experienced trader /prop trader of over 7 years. what is revealed in this thread , anything special? Id appreciate the summary, thanks. LOL Also, what is a "combine", and why is the name such? I heard that prop firms arent allowed to let their traders risk their own capital for futures, is that why TopStep is designed in this fashion ("fully funded", combine system, etc.)?
dude...the word "combine" is referenced from a TRAINING combine as in pro football tryouts. If you want a quick analysis, here it is: pay a fee to enter a TRADING combine, and meet the performance metrics. If you pass, then you trade a live account with an 80/20 split. The nuances of the specifics are found in the FAQ's on their site. The term "fully funded" only applies to the maintenance requirement for each product traded, plus the total drawdown allowed for the first 10 days of the live account. If you pass the combine and get the live account, then you MUST build up a profit cushion within the first 10 trading days (doesn't have to be consecutive days, just 10 days in total), and then expand on that cushion after the 11th day. If you go back to a "zero" balance (in other words, if you lose all the profits), then you are sent back to the combine. So in a nutshell the key to succeed with this program is not only passing a combine, but also building enough profit cushion in the early stages of the LIVE account. If you can do that then you can build up your lot size without deploying any of your own capital.
Most people are terrible analysts, period. How long does it take for you to do a through analysis (and we are assuming here that you are good at it and the result will be correct) compared to fast read this thread? Here is a fun thing to do: do your analysis first, THEN read the thread and compare your opinion with ours. By the way part of my analysis is reading threads like this and decide whose opinion is valid and whose is BS. As for TL;DR the thread: TST has been changing their rules too frequently and there are still some sketchy parts of their business, so the jury is still out on just how valid their business model and where the major part of their profit comes from. (profit sharing vs. combine and educational fees) There are valid reasons for taking the Combine (improvement, money saving,etc.), but it is certainly not for everyone. The same for being a backed trader, it can work for some, for others it is just better to trade your own.(tax implications, TST restrictions,etc) Their rules are way too strict, and lots of otherwise profitable traders couldn't trade by them, which again, questions their real motives. If one decides to try it, shouldn't do multiple combines forever, because money and time ads up eventually. That is about it. Now be a good boy, do your due diligence and come back to us and tell me if my quick summary was right on the money or not. P.S.: There are other similar companies mentioned in the thread, but you won't know it, unless you read the whole damn thing.
Yes, some rules definitely seem "way too strict" however there are several traders who have made it past the combine AND the first 10 days of the live account. But what happens to the majority of them in a month, three months, six months, one year? The rule that I find "way too strict" is only having 10 days to build the cushion in the live account. Let's say you trade conservatively and are only up $1,000 ($100/day net after fees). That $1k then becomes your TOTAL draw for the live account, which is probably insufficient to make the live account viable enough to continue building up. I'd say one needs to have at least $3k to $5k built up, however that might be difficult to accomplish within the first 10 days of the live account, given the extra weekly risk parameters which are not in the combine. Also, you are now trading OPM which means you will probably be more conservative with risk, especially in the beginnings of the live account when you must build up the cushion. Regarding the combine, I agree with having a daily loss limit, with a slight twist: allow the trader to keep trading UNTIL the close, regardless of the draw. In other words, change the daily loss limit to END OF DAY instead of intraday. A savvy trader will find ways to trade out of a jam, as long as there is time in the session and volatility. This happened in not one but TWO of my combines, where in one case the trade would have been positive, and in the most recent case, the trade would have wiped out the majority of the draw. The rule is "way too strict" when the trader could show the ability to get back to positive by the close, yet was shut out due to the intraday loss limit. Of course, from a backer's perspective they would not want this rule for a LIVE account, since it burdens them with potentially unlimited intraday risk. However, for a simulator, it should not matter since it's just part of the measurement criteria to qualify for a live account.
I don't know if it is still the case, but the daily limit used to mean end of day, as long as you didn't close the trade. In plain English, their software let you dip below the daily limit(and by quite a lot) and if the market turned around, and you closed above the limit, you were still golden. Now this could have been a glitch and they might have fixed it, but 2 years ago that is how it worked, I have posts about it. One of the biggest stupidity of their rules is the "you have to be profitable in all instruments". Really? You could make a shitload let's say in gold and oil, but if you are break even (meaning slightly below zero) in ES, your combine is screwed. That is not how it works in real life....
Having participated in the combine, its a great idea-- i made enough the first day to qualify but being distracted -- gave it all back-- With that said, the combine is a dream crusher and is in your face reality immediately. Folks on elite, particularly the "price action sla" and 10 x daily range hersheyites simply don't like reality. That's why NONE of them took my challenge to participate with me in the combine. If they did, they hid in shame with masses losses. Its a great thing, if u are not afraid of trading reality. Surf
1. No, the daily loss limit is INTRADAY, and to the tick in real time! That means once your total losses (including fees) hit that level, you are auto blipped out, regardless if the trade turns positive, or if there is time in the day to work out of the jam. Perhaps two years ago it was different, but not now. 2. I agree with the second point. If you're going to measure the ability of the trader, then it should not matter if he wins on ALL instruments, as long as he meets the profit criteria. Again, this goes back to point 1. Savvy traders at an equities prop firm may only win 50% of the time on the stocks they trade, and even take big draws. If the the profits exceed the losses, then it doesn't matter the number of the stocks they lost on, as long as the NET is positive over time. A buddy of mine joined a chat room called Investors Underground when he traded prop. Some guys in that room were very aggressive traders, taking on big size on momo plays. They posted their stats, and even those who took big draws had overall outsized returns. There is very little margin for error in the combine, since you aren't allowed to trade out of the jam. I understand from TST's perspective they only want traders who have superior risk management skills. However, that also means a trader faces an uphill battle in the live account, since you only get 10 days to build up the cushion, while taking very minimal draws, and that is simply unrealistic for most traders.
Agreed, I think many are reluctant to participate given the reality of dealing with the introspection required to examine one's weaknesses as a trader.
Lol just read this thread. I agree with nearly everything Mav said on the subject and loved his way of dealing with some quite delusional opinions which were thrown around. Some of the best were peeps saying TST is a scam trying to take your money. Hello, cuckoo, its a business. I like the way TST enforces discipline in the trader. 80% profit split seems a good deal.
Lol dude. Re software letting you dip below daily loss. It would take someone a couple of minutes on combine review to quickly check if you did this and bypassed the requirement. Re - being profitable in all instruments rule. This rule only applies while in the combine not when funded. Its so obvious that the rules are relaxed when you are funded and have a profit 'cushion'. The combine is testing your ability to trade each product YOU choose to trade over a sample. Cant you see that making 30 trades in one instrument and 3 in another instrument would be a turd thing to do as you risk failing on this rule. if the rule bothers you then just trade one instrument to get funded then do what you want after, unless maybe.....no lets not go there. One of the main things the combine is testing is can you follow a simple set of rules, heres a clue most people cant thats why they mess up. Lol at people who are saying the rules are wrong. They are offering 80% split and they eat losses.