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Worried about the economy?

  1. Don't be.

    "U.S.: Poised for a Big Comeback?

    (Export Development Canada – Peter G. Hall)

    Worried about the U.S. economy? You’re not alone. U.S. equity markets fell for six weeks in a row as nervous investors piled into U.S. treasuries, driving the 10-year yield down to 2.8%, the lowest level since November. Key indicators from various sectors of the economy have swooned. Is this just more evidence of a capricious market, or is this chapter 1 of the U.S. version of Japan’s ‘lost decade’?

    Significant financial crises in advanced economies are normally followed by a protracted 4-7 year slump before job creation and growth gets back on track. Japan’s case redefines ‘protracted’. Losses from the collapse of the real estate bubble were catastrophic for Japanese business, rendering most of them insolvent. In many cases, banks opted to muddle through rather than foreclose, saddling banks with non- or poorly-performing loans, and companies with years of heavy debt payments and little incentive to borrow and invest. Is the current US situation any different?

    Yes, in a critical sense. Aside from property developers, most U.S. non-financial corporations were not exposed to real estate. In fact, notwithstanding the financial crisis, right now they are doing better than ever. In Q1 2011, U.S. corporate profits hit an all-time high of $1.73 trillion. Moreover, balance sheets have never been more liquid: U.S. companies are sitting on almost $2 trillion of cash. Exports are helping, as they’re up 17% in the first four months of 2011 compared to the same period last year.

    How are these corporations doing so well when so many indicators are pointing south? One of the keys is the U.S. productivity record. Over the past decade, the U.S. has consistently churned out 50% higher annual labour productivity growth than the OECD average, and maintained that growth through the ups and downs of the cycle. The result? The U.S. is now producing 1% more real goods and services than it did at the pre-crisis peak, but with 6 million fewer jobs.

    However, there are limits to these productivity gains, and we believe that increased hiring is imminent. Despite May’s bevy of gloomy indicators, underlying demand still appears strong, and surveys of U.S. business hiring intentions are actually reasonably positive – suggesting that the current pause is a temporary wait-and-see approach to what looks like a transitory economic interruption.

    What about all the cash? It has been in wait-and-see mode too, parked in anticipation of more solid growth. But it’s beginning to loosen up. U.S. banks are again reopening the credit taps. For 6 consecutive quarters, senior loan officers have loosened their belts. And they have lots of money to lend. U.S. bank profits in Q1 reached $29 billion, just shy of the pre-crisis peak, and they are sitting on $1.6 trillion of excess cash and reserves. As this money makes its way back into the economy, momentum is expected to build, helping to work off the remaining pre-recession excesses and paving the way for a true and sustainable recovery – for the U.S., and by extension, for the world.

    The bottom line? Much is being made of the U.S. economy’s weaknesses, but it has fundamental strengths that are not too far below the surface. Investors are understandably nervous about current data, the non-continuation of QE2 and the ultimate withdrawal of fiscal stimulus. All the while, the U.S. economy is moving toward balance, and is armed to facilitate growth at that point. The bears who predict a lost decade for the U.S. economy might be sorely disappointed. Prepare for growth in 2012."

    I know, debt debt debt--yada yada yada. Remember, an improving economy means improving ability to pay.
  2. And...

    "U.S. Private Sector Job Growth Far Exceeds Estimates in June

    (RTT News)

    Employment in the U.S. private sector increased by much more than expected in the month of June, according to a report released by payroll processor Automatic Data Processing, Inc. (ADP) on Thursday, with the data easing some of the recent concerns about the strength of the labor market.

    The report showed that private sector employment increased by 157,000 jobs in June following a downwardly revised increase of 36,000 jobs in May. Economists had expected employment to increase by about 60,000 jobs compared to the addition of 38,000 jobs originally reported for the previous month.

    "Payroll employment growth at this pace usually implies a steady unemployment rate, perhaps even a modest decline," Joel Prakken, Chairman of Macroeconomic Advisers, said in a statement from ADP. He added, "June's figures suggest that the economic recovery, which slipped in the spring, might have found new traction in early summer."

    The stronger than expected private sector job growth in June was partly due to the addition of 130,000 jobs in the service-providing sector, which added jobs for the 18th consecutive month. Employment in the goods-producing increased by about a more modest 27,000 jobs in June, although that more than reversed the loss of 10,000 jobs seen in May. Manufacturing employment rose by 24,000 jobs.

    The report also showed that employment at small and medium-size businesses increased by 88,000 jobs and 59,000 jobs, respectively, while employment at large businesses edged up by 10,000 jobs.

    A separate report from the Labor Department showed that initial jobless claims fell by more than expected in the week ended July 2nd, although claims remain above the key 400,000 level. The Labor Department said jobless claims fell to 418,000 from the previous week's revised figure of 432,000, while economists had expected jobless claims to slip to 420,000 from the 428,000 originally reported for the previous week.

    Robert Kavcic, an economist at BMO Capital Markets, said, "We now await tomorrow's non-farm payrolls report, which looks to be quite a bit better than the recently scaled back expectations."

    The Labor Department's monthly employment report, which includes government jobs, is currently expected to show an increase of about 110,000 jobs in June. The unemployment rate is expected to hold steady at 9.1%."
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  4. Ricter I cant help but notice that most of your economic "good" news is on the export front, probably because you are in the business of exporting.

    Yes, exports have gone up because Bernanke, and Obama have crushed the dollar, but do you really think that this is good news to the overall population of the U.S. when the U.S. is the largest IMPORTER of goods/commodities in the world?

    The only people gaining from this are businesses who export, while everyday americans are getting crucified based on the weak dollar.
  5. Keep this on the down-low, but *whisper*, "buy American". Pass it on.
  6. Like i said before, that doesnt help much when we need oil, and other imported commodities in order to survive.

    Inflation over the last three decades is precisely the reason why the rich got richer, and the poor/middle class remained the same. People with no assets get crushed by inflation, while people with assets make out pretty good. Wages are not going to go up to correspond with the amount of purchasing power people lose when the dollar gets crushed, we have seen this happen for 3 decades, but you are cheering this on as if it is a good thing.

    Liberals complain about how the discrepancy is getting wider between the rich and the poor, but the fact of the matter is that the poor and middle class are making the same they always made, the fed is simply crushing them through inflation, and the devaluation of the dollar.
  7. I believe we've had time enough to adapt to inflation. Productivity comes to mind. Did I post that article?

    <img src="http://www.gocurrency.com/img/inflation.JPG">

    The new surge in currency devaluation:

    <img src="http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=gB">

    Oh, oops. Nevermind.
  8. These are government inflation numbers, and the government now convieniently neglects to include the cost of energy/food in their inflation numbers.(which are the 2 most important numbers.)

    Sure i can buy a plasma T.V. from China for a quarter of the cost, but what does that matter when i dont have enough food to survive, or gas to get me to my job?

    Look at the price of a barell of oil in the 90's as opposed to today. I guess it doesnt matter that the price of oil in inflation adjusted dollars is 5 times today what it was in 1998.

    Look at the price of food back then as opposed to today, you dont have to be a genius to realise that the food items on the bottom end are 5 times more than they were back then.

    When i was in college i could buy a box of KD for 25 cents, hell that was basically my entire diet, the other day i went to the store and it was 1.69.(though i think they were screwing me at that price for kd) And this is only 8 years ago.

    Are you really denying that this is happening? That kind of stuff crushes people on the low end.
  9. Lets do the math on this, lets say a person is making minimum wage( in todays dollars) 8$ per hour is more than the average.

    That means 8$ *40 hours per week, or 320 per week, * 4 work weeks that equals 1280 per month.

    Lets say that person used to fill up on 25 dollars per week and it lasted him all week in the 90's thats 100 dollars per month.

    So now 1 decade later he has to pay 5 times as much, and wages are still 8 bucks an hour, that means the same guy is paying 500 dollars a month, just to put gas in his tank. That is more than 1/3rd of his total salary of 1280 dollars per month.

    Now lets say he has to pay double on his grocery bill as well. I would set a reasonable grocery bill for a guy on minimum wage who is scraping by at 200 per month back then.

    Well lets just say that is now 2 times higher (not even the 5 times higher which it actually is.) This will mean 400 for groceries.

    So due to inflation this poor asshole is now paying, 500 per month for gas, and 400 per month for groceries. That is 900 dollars gone from a 1280$ paycheque.

    This guy hasnt paid for rent or any other bills yet at this price, and he is left with 380 dollars, out of his 1280. Where as he would have had about 980 dollars left over in the mid 90's.(100 for gas, 200 for groceries.)

    Do you not see that as a big difference?

    Actually looking at the positive side, atleast Plasma T.V.'s are cheaper then they used to be. Maybe he could finance one for 35 years, spend half of his last 380 disposable income per month on the t.v. and move into section 8 housing, so he doesnt have to be bothered with rent.

    Wait a minute...... isnt this already happening?
  10. Good points, Max, I'll try to get to them. In the meantime:

    "Exports generated 9.2 million U.S. jobs in '10
    The following is from the 6 July 2011 edition of the “American Shipper”.

    The U.S. Commerce Department’s International Trade Administration reported Tuesday that exports supported an estimated 9.2 million jobs in 2010, up from 8.7 million in 2009.

    Also, for every $1 billion of exports, more than 5,000 jobs are supported, the agency said.

    New data from the ITA shows employment supported by manufactured exports plays a significant role in many states. Twenty-one states each counted more than 100,000 jobs supported by manufactured exports in 2009, with two states registering more than a half-million -- California at 616,500 jobs, and Texas at 538,500 jobs.

    “As we continue to make progress in reaching the goals of the President’s National Export Initiative, we are confident that the number of jobs supported by exports will continue to rise,” said Francisco Sánchez, undersecretary of commerce for international trade, in a statement. “More businesses are reaching customers in foreign markets and seeing their sales rise which leads to more good-paying jobs in the United States.”

    The report updates ITA’s April 2010 report, Exports Support American Jobs, and points out that more than ever, exports are central to a strong U.S. economy. The value of exports that support one job was $181,000 in 2010, an increase of $17,000, or 10 percent from the 2009 figure, as export prices and productivity have strengthened.

    “The International Trade Administration is committed to helping U.S. firms find lucrative exporting opportunities around the globe, and ensuring access to these markets,” Sánchez said. “Our efforts improve the global business environment and help U.S. companies compete abroad, creating jobs at home.”

    Clearly it's the right course correction to make, the NEI, but it also takes time and a pound of flesh.
  11. You are posting these numbers, as if it is a counterpoint to my argument. For the record, i will gladly say that i agree, exports are good, and we should continue trying to bolster our manufacturing base, and continue trying to export goods.

    However i feel like i have more than proven the fact that when you create exports through the destruction of the dollar, you ruin far more peoples lives, then what it is worth to create a few new jobs via exports.

    I wish we were far more focused on innovation, as opposed to creating jobs sheerly through the destruction of currency, and inflation. Sadly this is not the case. What is happening right now is exports going up, solely based on the destruction of the U.S.D, which is unsustainable, and destructive to anyone who doesnt own assets.

  12. Yes we would be in great shape if we stop giving all of our money to the animals. Housing, food, cash. And they continue to rob us. Causing police, jail, government services all too much of a tax burden. Good article, just missing a huge chunk that is dragging this nation down.
  13. History repeats itself. Looks like the USA is not the place to be for the next 10 years. 4 to 7 year slump before job creation gets back on track? Fu that shi.
  14. I agree. I also came across this today:

    "Switzerland Tops Innovation Rankings

    (Bridges Weekly)

    Switzerland is the world’s most innovative economy, according to a ranking released last week in Geneva by the Paris-based INSEAD business school, in collaboration with the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO), Alcatel-Lucent, Booz & Company, and the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII). The Global Innovation Index (GII), which has been prepared annually since 2007, aims to establish metrics for measuring innovation to better understand its role in driving economic progress.

    Soumitra Dutta, co-author of the report with Daniela Benavente, commented: “The index aims at gauging not only the capacity of an economy to innovate but also the extent of its success in doing so.” Both Dutta and Benavente are from INSEAD.

    The rankings are based on innovation “inputs” and “outputs.” In the case of the former, the input pillars attempt to capture elements of a national economy that enable innovation; these include institutions, human capital and research, infrastructure, market sophistication, and business sophistication. Output pillars focus on evidence of scientific and creative innovation.

    Following Switzerland, the top ten includes Sweden, Singapore, Hong Kong, Finland, Denmark, U.S., Canada, the Netherlands, and the UK. China, at position 29, is the only emerging economy that entered the top 30 (see http://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii/)

    Emerging economies came out ahead when the economies are ranked by innovation efficiency – i.e. the ratio of an economy’s innovation output score to its input score – which included some of the world’s most densely populated countries. Côte d’Ivoire tops the innovation efficiency index, followed by Nigeria, China, Pakistan, Moldova, Sweden, Brazil, Argentina, India, and Bangladesh.

    Gary Nugent of Alcatel-Lucent emphasised that this ranking demonstrates that developing countries “are generating a substantial amount of scientific and creative output from an environment which is not the most heavily invested or mature. That implies that if they are able to maintain that degree of productivity that will have a gearing effect.”

    The report adopts a broad definition of innovation in line with the most recent developments and standards in this field, such as those of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which is the publisher of the Oslo Manual.

    The GII’s input and output pillars encompass approximately 80 individual indicators. These covered areas such as tertiary student mobility, microfinance, trademarks, and creative outputs, along with more traditional indicators such as research and development expenditure, patents, and scientific publications.

    Authors point out that the ranking was submitted to a thorough statistical audit by the Joint Research Centre of the European Commission.

    Nevertheless, questions have been raised about the relevance and quality of some of the selected indicators and the resulting rankings. For instance, some have pointed to the limitations of patents as a measure of innovation. Speaking on a panel at the GII’s Geneva launch, Naushad Forbes, Chairman of the CII Innovation Council and Director of Forbes Marshall, noted that patent counts do not capture sufficiently the full range of new services, products, and business methods brought to the market. Forbes commented that these are key outputs of innovation.

    Rolf-Dieter Heuer, Director General of CERN – the European Organization for Nuclear Research – was also at the Geneva launch, and questioned the index’s excessive reliance on patents in promoting innovation. Heuer noted that, had CERN patented the World Wide Web, then the world might be a very different place.

    WIPO Director General Francis Gurry responded that, had the internet been patented with fair and flexible licensing terms, it might have prompted major investments into future research. He stressed that, overall, intellectual property rights are not rigid and actually enable knowledge sharing, which fosters innovation.

    In conclusion, Gurry noted at the report launch that the journey toward understanding innovation remains incomplete. Bruno Lanvin of INSEAD reaffirmed this sentiment, stating that the GII as it stands is not “ultimate,” and can be improved through collaboration and further evidence-based research."

    Goddamn commies. ; )
  15. What point are you trying to make as it pertains to the u.s. based on this article? What point have i argued with?

    Im all for "innovation" im not in faviour of the destruction of the dollar in order to create false exports, i have said this repeatedly.

    There wasnt a single comment in this article that alluded to the destruction of a nations currency in order to bump their exports.

  16. In your case, my point is that you should be more careful about your tossing around denigrations of "liberal", and then elsewhere naming attributes you admire but which more liberal countries than our own are beating us in.

    This will save me some time. Much of what you've described as problems of the US is in fact why there are liberals. "The minimum wage will hurt business!" So the minimum wage hasn't budged, relative to inflation, for decades, as you say (I haven't checked that), and indeed business is doing great, (well, not so much the SMEs)... but not the working man.

    Republican values are, at best, of no use whatsoever to the nation at this time. To the degree that Obama is entertaining them, we continue to suffer. I'll grant that the GOP has possibly gone nuts, in pandering to the nuts of the Tea Party, and that sanity may return some day. Without the Tea Party, maybe they could look at the data that's right in front of us all.
  17. The quality just isn't there. I used to "buy local" then I got treated insanely badly by locals, and "buy american" but those cars were garbage compared to the German and Japanese stuff so why be political about what we buy? If Americans make a lot of low quality stuff why should I reward them with my business?

    I love that scene in "Outlaw Josey Wales" where the Indian asks the snake oil salesman what's in the elixer. The sales guy says "I don't know, I just sell it" and the Indian says "Then you drink it"...
  18. I will be back right away, got to go to supper for my moms b-day.

  19. I remember that time. We weren't quite yet aware at the national level what fierce competition globalism was going to expose us to. The good news is that American auto manufacturers have improved their product and kept costs down quite well. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I believe the free-market never works.
  20. Minimum wage will never keep up with inflation, thats the point, inflation crushes the little guy, and the middle guy. There is no way that minimum wage will ever keep up with the cost of a barrel of oil for example. In 1998 a barrell of oil was 12 dollars, and minimum wage was about 6 dollars.

    Do you really think that when oil goes from 12 to 100, (an 8 multiplier) that minimum wage is going to follow and go from 6 to 48 dollars an hour?

    Wages never keep up with inflation, because businesses dont even keep up with inflation, inflation crushs everyone.

    There is a GIGANTIC ANCHOR hanging on workers, in the U.S. called china, and we have a long damn way to go before we can match the wages which they have in China, So minimum wage will never go up, until we have matched the 1 dollar per day wages in china.

    Thats the reason why we should not be trying to compete based on a weakened dollar.... because we are playing their game. We would absolutely have to decimate our labourers to compete on that level, so we are better off living an isolationist policy.

    That is just unrealistic.

  21. Do take some consolation in the fact that Chinese wages are rising.
  22. They may be rising but we have such a big difference until it is balanced that it is not even worth talking about.

    An unskilled labourer in China makes 2 dollars a day, an unskilled labourer in the U.S. makes 8 dollars an hour. (64$ per day)How much damage is there in between to cover that spread?

    If we were to meet halfway thast would mean the petty labourers here would need to make 4$ per hour. (32$ per day.)

    32$ per day is hardly even enough money to cover the gas in a persons car....
  23. Stop making sense. Their heads are spinning.
  24. Apart from what he reads in the MSM, Ricter understands very little of the actual economy. This has been established ad nauseum on this forum.
  25. Yep he's a nice enough guy and I think he does mean well, but he's utterly clueless.
  26. The first ridiculous posts cut and pasted in this thread aside, the job number report that just came out was abysmal.
  27. Stunner: NFP Up Just 18K, Unemployment Rate 9.2%, Household Survey Down 445,000, Birth Death +131,000


    Complete disaster. Total jobs per the establishment survey: +18K on expectations of 105K, Private Jobs + 57K on expectations of 132K. Last month total was revised from 54K to 25K. Combined April and May revision down 44K. The household survey was down by 445K from 139,779 to 139,334. Birth death adjustment + 131K. Complete disaster for Wall Street's economists the lowest prediction of whom cwas at 60K from Bob Brusca. From the NFP: "Nonfarm payroll employment was essentially unchanged in June (+18,000), and the unemployment rate was little changed at 9.2 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Employment in most major private-sector industries changed little over the month. Government employment continued to trend down." It is time for Joe LaVorgna to retire, with his 175K forecast, or off by a factor of 972%.

    Without the fictitious "Birth Death" adjustment made up number by the BLS, the number would have printed a loss of 113,000 jobs.

    I am sure, however, given the free money and rigged markets, we'll close green today in the markets, while the poor go without. Change we can believe in.
  28. Labor Force Participation Rate Drops To Fresh 25 Year Low: 64.1%

    This chart needs no commentary. At 64.1%, the Labor Force Paritipcation rate just dropped to a fresh 25 year low: the civilian labor force declined by 272K from 153,693 to 153,421. And tangentially, the employment to population ratio also slumped to a multi decade low of 58.2%. For all those continuing to blame Bush, please take a note as to where on the chart the torch was passed.

  29. Ricter is good shit.... His only fault is that hes an optimist....as opposed to all of us pessimistic pricks.... There is no place for optimism when the sky is falling.......:D
  30. Mornin' all, thanks for the insults and the defense.

    Still, there is good news in today's employment report. Government is continuing to shrink, and some people who had given up looking for work have rejoined the search.

    I guess my optimism is indeed based on my position. I am fully benefiting from capital's freedom to cross borders at will and find its best return, and at the same time any local labor I need is abundant, cheap, and cowed by its recent setbacks. It's ironic, me, a commie, in this position, and many of you, pro-capitalists, countering my optimism with dismal news re labor.
  31. I am not insulting you as a person. You are one of maybe three people here who lean left that I do not have on ignore. I enjoy your commentary. But regarding the true economic status of the country, you have shown yourself to be able to grasp a bit more than the average Joe, but you are frequently surprised when data is pointed out to you that reveals the true nature of the varying statistics you read in the news. That tells me you're not really well-versed in the economy. So if that comes off as insulting, then I'm sorry. But it's truth. Something tells me you're not all that insulted, though.

    You are correct, a shrinking of government jobs is a good thing. That is, perhaps, the only thing that is positive in this report. But the numbers are still - even as bad as they are - manipulated in a direction to make them look more positive than they actually are. The true numbers are much, much worse. And that is why there can be no recovery until they get better. It all starts here, with jobs. The rest is fluff.
  32. Blind optimists are despicable. Optimists with a clue are hard to find.
  33. IMHO, that is the only chart I'm willing to pay atttention to any longer. Since the unemployed can drop off the ledger after x weeks, the labor participation rate makes far more sense.

    Of course, I'm sure all of those "commission only" or part time work might make it's way onto that chart as well, but I'll accept that as part of an imperfect system.

    In any event, it should be crystal clear to anybody with a functioning brain, that the growth in government over the past decade was a stop gap measure to mitigate the effects of a dwindling private sector and the after effects of "offshoring". Of course, the housing bubble did provide that short term burst of plentiful jobs, but at a massive cost to future employment and long term prospects for the construction/real estate trade.
  34. I believe you are largely correct. We are beginning to resemble our parents, the Europeans.
  35. while Bush was in the office the chart kept going down. past 2008 dive off the cliff is due solely to 2008 crisis while Bush was still in office.

    I just can't see how you can blame this whole chart on Obama. If there is no turnaround happening soon then you can blame that part of the chart on Obama. I would say 2002-2010 belongs to Bush, 94-02 belongs to Clinton, 2011-forward to Obama as far as blame assignment goes.
  36. Where was it again that I blamed the whole chart on Obama?
  37. Wages are sticky. Prices aren't. Labor makes the same wage they did 10 years ago, yet prices are dramatically higher, across the board. Paychecks don't go as far, production declines, which explains the terrible employment and GDP numbers. The other side to that coin is deleveraging. Pre '08 saw a massive consumption binge driven via credit expansion. Americans racked up their credit cards and borrowed against their home equity to buy useless shit. Now, consumers must pay off their credit cards and HELOC's. Paying back huge debt forces austerity on personal income. And higher prices means current incomes don't go as far as they used too! That double-whammy goes a long way to explain why growth and jobs are nowhere to be found. Demand is dead.

    In order to get out of this recession, the economy must restructure. Public sector wages, pensions, entitlements and Corporate Welfare (read: Defense) are a huge deadweight on the economy and are simply unaffordable. 40% of every program and departmental budget is funded through debt. Every public sector worker, benefit plan, entitlement program and department needs to take a 40% haircut, immediately. Done. Then Government must stand aside, and allow the ocean of cheap money that's arresting growth, drain from the marketplace. In the process, most Democratic states will go bankrupt, as well as pensioneers, bankers, insurers and everyone indexed and leveraged in the market at todays prices. The bright side to all this: only then will prices recalibrate and find their natural bottom. It's at that point, the purchasing power of the gainfully employed will skyrocket, asset accumulation will return in force, as will investment (as all bankrupts and question marks have been cleared out), which radically spurs employment and job creation. That's the only way out of this. We are modeling Japans failure. They too, refused to let prices return to mean to shield politically-connected bankers from insolvency. The result was a crushing 20 years of deflation in a healthy global economy that essentially propped them up. America will not enjoy the same success. Nor will Europe. We're >50% of global GDP. No one Country, or group of Countries, can absorb anywhere near the imports necessary to "prop" our economies. Exporting our way out of this is a pipe-dream. It's propaganda sold by Keynesians and Central Bankers to rationalize endless quantitative easing. AS IF that will solve our employment and demand problems.... No, but it goes a long way to bailing out and shoring up insolvent Bankers, who, just by happenstance, own the Federal Reserve System and whose alumni run the Treasury Department and Federal Reserve. Same with Japan. It's all Nepotism. Corporations bought off Government and now pull the strings. That's why we haven't seen any real growth or innovation in 10 years, or more. The Government is run for the benefit of a handful of industries who bought off Congress: Defense, Bankers and Fortune 100 outsourcers. And here we are. Bubble economics. DC is incredibly corrupt. And the voting American public are, for the most part, incredibly ignorant. And incredibly naive. A nation run by idiots and thieves. Is it any wonder we find ourselves where we are?
  38. you said: "For all those continuing to blame Bush, please take a note as to where on the chart the torch was passed"

    as I pointed you need to add ~2 years to the torch passing date to assign blame properly.

    To sum: Your claim is without merit.
  39. To sum: I'm not claiming anything.

    But since you brought it up, where is the economics rule that says you need to add about 2 years to assign blame properly?

    "past 2008 dive off the cliff is due solely to 2008 crisis while Bush was still in office."

    You have any scientific fact to back that up?

    To sum: You seem to be purely anecdotal.