I'd like any Muslims here try to debate this claim. Here is the website with a full copy of Quran, with each verse being rendered in 3 traditional translations (by Yusufali, Picktal and Shakir): http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/017.qmt.html Sura 017.104 YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd. PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations. SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment. Muslims will say that this particular verse talks about how the Jews refused to enter the Holy Land when they came out of Egypt, out of fear of the Philistines living there, and that Allah is talking here about them wandering in desert 40 years and then entering the Holy Land. But CAREFUL analysis of this verse, and 2 other verses, reveals that it CANNOT LOGICALLY be God talking about that event which happened 3000 years ago. Firstly, the verse says "out of various nations". The only time Jews were gathered out of various nations back to Israel is the 20th century. That already tells us that the verse couldn't be talking about Jews re-entering Holy Land after 40 years of desert wandering, since back then they were still one group, and not taken out of various nations. Secondly, the verse says "after the second warning comes to pass", and in another translation, "when the promise of the Hereafter comes to pass". What exactly does that mean? For that, we have to look at a few other earlier ayahs (verses) in the same Sura (chapter) - Sura 17...none of them are taken out of context, I made sure: 017.004 YUSUFALI: And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)! PICKTHAL: And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants. SHAKIR: And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence. KEYWORD: TWICE! Next ayah: 017.005 YUSUFALI: When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled. PICKTHAL: So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed. SHAKIR: So when the promise for the first of the two came, We sent over you Our servants, of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished. THIS VERSE TALKS ABOUT THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY, NOT the destruction of the Northern Kingdom of Israel by Assyrians. How do we know that? Because it says in the next verse.... 017.006 YUSUFALI: Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power. PICKTHAL: Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery. SHAKIR: Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band. Obviously, this could only be talking about Babylonian Captivity, because the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel were taken captive by Assyria, never returned, and are still lost. Now, here is the key verse that solves the whole riddle of what exactly the verse 17:104 is talking about... 017.007 YUSUFALI: If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power. PICKTHAL: (Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting. SHAKIR: If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction. KEYWROD: SECOND WARNINGS IT OBVIOUSLY TALKS ABOUT THE ROMAN DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE RESULTING SCATTERING OF JEWS. It could not be talking about any other event, because the next verse shows us that logically this verse could only be talking about the LAST destruction of Jerusalem. Next verse: 017.008 YUSUFALI: It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith). PICKTHAL: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers. SHAKIR: It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you again return (to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers. Since in that chapter, there are no more verses that talk about destructive events surrounding Judah, it is obvious that the second (and last) warning was the Roman destruction of Judah. How does this all prove that in verse 104, Allah was talking about the future gathering of Jews into Israel, and not a past event that happened right after the 40 year desert wandering? Very logically. 1. Jews weren't gathered as a "mingled group" or "out of various nations" when they entered Holy Land after wandering 40 years in the desert. So Muslims trying to use that argument are in a dead-end. 2. Allah is clearly giving us a clue in the other verses, regarding what exactly the phrase "after the second warnings come to pass" or "when the final promise comes to pass" in verse 104, means. FIRST warning was Babylonian Captivity. SECOND warning was Roman captivity. 3. Allah has made it clear to a discerning reader of the Quran, that the Second Warning was Roman destruction, and that the Second Warning CONTINUED UP UNTIL the gathering of Jews back to Israel almost 2000 years later. So the Second Warning, was in effect beginning from the Roman destruction of Israel, enduring up until the establishment of Israel in the 20th century, which Allah revealed to Muhammad in the verse 104: 017.104 YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd. PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations. SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment. Note that due to the complexities of the Old Arabic language, there are differences in translation of that complex prophetic verse. We could only deduce which translation is right by: 1) history, which is undeniable, and which shows the return of Jews as a "mingled group", "out of various nations" back to Holy Land, and which shows Israel withstanding and defeating a multitude of Arabic nations several times in its short history, which could only be by the decree of God; 2) logic, looking at the other verses and then at this one, it could only make sense if it was prophesying the future return of Jews back to Israel. 3) confirmation in both the Old, and the New, Testaments. Both the Hebrew Bible and the Gospels prophesy a future return of Jews back to Israel. Since Quran claims to only confirm what has been previously revealed, and to correct supposed "man-made corruptions" in the previous two revelations, it makes sense that Quran would confirm what is agreed between both Judaism and Christianity (a rare circumstance).
1. How do you know your Arabic to English translation is correct? 2. How do you know that the translation itself is correct? 3. How do you know your comments following the passages are correct? In America we have a document written in English, we know who the authors were, it is less than 300 years old...and yet we see very different opinions on what it means and how it is interpreted. We have a process to iron out the kinks, because the authors did not claim the document was divinely inspired. So we are going to get into the game of analyzing scriptures to reach agreement among different religions? Good luck.
+1 I would still like to hear what our resident muslim extremist sameeh has to say. But knowing him, he will just ignore what you wrote and talk about the women and children being killed in west bank.
The Palestinian people tell you fuck you and fuck the Quran you fake Khazara Jews. We did not assign the fucking god of the torah, new testament and the quran to be our land's real estate broker.
Its not your land. Palestine is a made-up country, a 20th century artifice. Most "palestinians" are egyptian. Such an ignorant hateful attitude, tsk tsk tsk.
Actually, all Palestinians are Egyptians! I am not counting on a monkey like you to be educated beyond knowing the state it lives in given the fact that the only channel your tin foil antenna receives is a zionist controlled one. What a waste of monkey semen. But then again, for a zionist slave who's only purpose in life is to work as his Jewish boss cock holder back in the textile factory you worked in, I am not surprised that you hold such hostility. Keep in mind that I have no issue in refuting every lie and back my argument with evidence. As for the three stooges in here, you are not even worth shitting on you.
The funny part is that I am being harassed by the same stupid zionnazis. What you guys don't understand is that no matter how much harassment you carry, and no matter how low you stoop, I will expose you for the fraud you are and I will put you in your place like the little maggots you really are. Afterall, I know your exact filthy makeup and I am very versed in dealing with you...The whole lot of you. Lets us see how far you will get with me. I will not relent and I will bitch slap you every time you act stupid...Which is very often. If you think that you will succeed in silencing me like you did with many people who opposed and exposed you, you are dead wrong. Sleep well bitches.
lol Sammy I'm thinking you drive a cab by day and pose as an internet-jihadist at night. I'm just lol. Driving a cab and listening to arabic radio while muttering and cursing the infidels and zionistas. Comic.