Home > Brokerage Firms > Prop Firms > New Nasdaq Fees (Echo vs. Bright)

New Nasdaq Fees (Echo vs. Bright)

  1. Just saw the (new) Echo fee schedule on their site. They charge the ECN fees, but say on their site that the "direct access" to the ECNs is superior. They even point out that firms that do not charge the ECN fees (Implying Bright here I think), suffer from slower executions because they try to match against their own book first (REDIPlus trying to match to REDI first?)

    Can anyone, from their personal experience, confirm/deny this?
    Basically, if ISLD is on the bid and I'm selling, do I have to wait (more than 1 sec. = bad, more than 5 sec. = very bad), while RediPlus tries to match with the REDI ECN?

    Also, Echo offers a .001 rebate for adding liquidity. Sounds Interesting. They claim this is a "profit center" for many of their traders. Anyone from Echo have any insights on this?
     
  2. With rebate I get back from Island I'm now offering out on Island instead of my usual NY as I peel off some of my positions.
    Robert Tharp
     
  3. esc_trader,

    if ISLD is on the bid and I'm selling, do I have to wait (more than 1 sec. = bad, more than 5 sec. = very bad), while RediPlus tries to match with the REDI ECN?

    Although I've never traded with Bright I assume that the Redi software would try to match it's own internal book first in the same way that all ARCA orders thru Realtick check the Archipelago book first. But the process is practically instantaneous, and if no match is found they immediately try to find a match against all other ECN's that they have direct links to. Then they try to find a match against the remaining ECN's that they don't have direct links to (by SelectNet).

    Anyway, if you're selling and ISLD is showing enough liquidity on the bid, why not simply route your order directly to ISLD?
     
  4. All ECN's try to match their own book. This is good for them AND you. They look at the market for the best price. If they can find an equal or better price on their own ECN, they'll fill it there because it's cheaper for them AND faster for you. This is true for ARCA, ISLD, REDI.

    So, regardless of your execution software on the front end. If you put your order out on ISLD, it will look at ISLD and if they find the best price there, that's where it will be executed. Same for ARCA and same for REDI. Any ECN that did otherwise would not get much business. With RediPlus, you can specify which ECN you want to put your order on. You can do this with each individual trade or for all OTC stocks.

    The downside of going to an outside ECN is the "Ships Passing in the Night Scenario". Let's say that you put your order on ARCA, it reads the market and sees that ISLD has the best bid so it hits it. In the milliseconds (10-20) it takes for your order to get there, someone on ISLD who pushed the button at the same time gets the stock. You are rejected and the process starts again. But if you were hitting the bid on ARCA, you wouldn't have the delay involved in transmitting the order because it's right there. Now let's say you are the guy on ISLD and ARCA has the best bid, well then you'd still be in the same boat and have to transmit to ARCA so someone on ARCA could pop in and get it before you do. So, it depends on what ECN you put your order out.

    As a disclaimer, this is the way I understand it to be. But technology changes all the time, so I'm not saying it's gospel.
     
  5. I've been using ISLD and Redi with Bright for the QQQ and the SPY for quite a while, and have never noticed any execution speed issues on any of them.
    ISLD executions are instantaneous so are REDI executions.

    On a side note, Bright charges an extra fee for Level II, without it as far as I know you won't be able to see ISLD on listed stocks.

    One more thing, pay extra attention to the people that play ECN games on listed stocks, they tend to park their bids and offers, a dollar away from the NYSE quote with the same decimals, lets NYSE at 38.69 and ISLD at 39.69, at first glance they tend to look the same, and sometimes when you are in hurry, you might accidentally hit them, and it hurts.
    Last year I hit a 500 Ask on ISLD a buck above the Nyse ask, at least now I know where the bad prints come from...

    RandomWalker
     
  6. Magna - That's true, I would route directly to ISLD in that case, however I am assuming that Bright does not have a direct link to ISLD, or others such as INCA, since they do not charge the ECN fees.

    This from Echo's site:
    >>
    Often times firms that offer no ECN fees do not have direct routing to the ECNs, but rather route through a third party or a different ECN first, looking for an order match, then to the prospective ECN. This takes time, sometimes many seconds, and a slow order in a moving stock can be costly.
    >>

    Really, many seconds? I suppose paying the ECN fees would be worth it if this is the case.
     
  7. You don't need to pay for NASDAQ L2 to see ISLD on either listed or OTC stocks.
     
  8. It seems to me that ECHO trade is trying to match www.pointdirex.com fees schedule, which pointdirex already has. I dont have much experience with echo trade, but i dont see it have access to many of the ecn's. Also i dont know about the experience of the software either, as far as speed and reliaibilty. i just switched to pointdirex and am very happy with them.
    just my 2cents.

    thanks
    hans
     
  9. extra fee for level 2?
    that sounds crazy to me. which I think is why Bright never was appealing to me. There always seems to be some additional fee on everything...which confirms what I heard in the first place about the Echo's breaking away from Bright...they were tired of getting nickel and dimed everywhere.
    Reminds me of a local bank up here in Albany...They've got a 20foot sign that says "Totally Free checking" .so I signed up...the first month I had about $15 in fees. I'll never do business with that bank, ever again.
    uptik2000
     
  10. I have seen this game also, not just on listed but on thinner nazdaq's. Gotta pay attention.:p
     
  11. Cashonly has got it right. Esc Trader, remember that Redi and Realtick are front ends and that you must tell the front-end where you want your order routed in the fragmented mess called Nasdaq. It is confusing because Redi is the name of the SLK front end and the ECN. You should never have an Island order given a "look" by another ECN. Like Cashonly noted, the Arca and Redi ECN's (which have recently merged) have selectnet features which allow them to trade with the Nasdaq system (market makers and other ECN's) but which are slower than trading with the ECN directly. They do offer the advantages, though, of market orders, which other ECN's don't.

    Randomwalker, thank you for the head's up on the traders lurking in the listed Level II's. I have recently started to keep my level II up for the listed stocks I trade since more and more bids and offers are beginning to pop up (never really with any size, though.)

    As far as the Island adding liquidity rebate, it is a real rebate that the Island offers. Clearing firms typically pocket this but I'm sure if Echo is receiving it, other firms are soon to follow.
     
  12. vsisto-
    thanx for the info...is this why when I had Realtick and used ARCA sometimes I wouldn't see the order come up on level2 for 15-20 seconds? That was always a real pain...then I just started using Island and never had a problem...but I hate the fact that you can't put stops and trailing stops on Island

    Does Bright rebate the Island orders?

    And how does Bright feel about the RedI-Arca merger?
    I know in one seminar Bright said ARCA wasn't a "true ECN"...so how does this merger effect traders? Are Bright traders gonna move to not using REDI?
     
  13. Thanks for the tip random. Using ISLD on listed stocks can be profitable! I do use L2s to see this..
    For instance, in a weak stock NYSE showing 30.40 x 30.50 and sometimes ISLD will pop in with a bid at 30.49. I hit em immediately for whatever size they are showing. Wouldn't have been able to get into that going to NYSE. It doesn't happen all that often but when it does I jump on it. Today, I was in CA long and was moving against me - hitting the bid on NYSE I would have been -.15, good old ISLD comes in and got out only -.04 Whew!
     
  14. How much do they charge for level 2?

    Also, for clarity, Bright does not have direct ecn access except to Redi correct? Isld, arca, brut, mxt, inca are hit thru redi algorithm then?
     
  15. I'm sure Don Bright is around here somewhere and can answer the questions on his firm specifically, but as far as the merger is concerned, its a win for all. Two liquid books are now becoming even more liquid books. The new ARCA ECN is something to be reckoned with. The losers in this transaction are not the traders, but Instinet and Island. Our traders are very comfortable with ARCA.
     
  16. It's like $20 a month or so, I think it is cheap, if you take into account that at least once a day, I am able to get in or out of a listed position, at a better price than using NYSE

    AS far as I know and based on what happens to the orders I send, the ISLD orders go straight to ISLD, and I think Redi ECN is not active on listed stocks during normal market hours.
    The only other ECN that shows up on L2 for listed is ARCA, and always way outside of the market.
    As for the other ECNS on OTC stocks, I really don;t know, I only trade listed and indexes

    Aftter hours, REDi usually has better prices and size than ISLD on listed stocks.

    RandomWalker
     
  17. FYI, REDI trading hours are:
    QQQ,SPY, DIA and NASDAQ stocks: 7:30am-8:00pm
    Listed stocks:7:30am-9:15am and 4:00pm-8:00pm

    I know ISLD, ARCA and INCA all trade listed during normal market hours, in addition to pre and post market as well. I'm not sure if MKXT,NTRD,BRUT,BTRD and ATTN trade listed stocks. If anyone knows, please post.
     
  18. L2 is $50/mo.

    Bright DOES have direct ECN access on ISLD, ARCA, INCA, and REDI. Don't think it's avail for BRUT or MXT, but can't say for certain.
     
  19. Does Bright rebate the Island orders?

    No, but their Nasdaq pricing is still solid.

    And how does Bright feel about the RedI-Arca merger?
    I know in one seminar Bright said ARCA wasn't a "true ECN"...so how does this merger effect traders? Are Bright traders gonna move to not using REDI?

    No, we don't rebate Island orders, and we don't charge for using Island.

    Island has sent me their pricing, including rebate program for "adding liquidity" ...but since we don't charge for their use anyway, we don't get the rebate...why pay .25 to get back .10 on some orders (actually .0025, and .0010 for you "nitpickers" ) :)



    As I posted earlier, the RediArca merger is great....Server "Farms" nationwide, more bandwidth, better book depth...as Vito said "win win"..

    The scoop on ARCA (not being a "true ECN")....ARCA does have MM's who use the ARCA "give up" and post bids and offers like any MM, and have the ability to "fade" at times....a "true ECN" does not give that ability.
     
  20. Gee whiz, Jeff and the people at Echo could have at least asked before xeroxing our price schedules....a little "spin" action on the remote schedule...but for Gosh sakes, stealing my Lincoln Head penny from years ago is down right mean!!

    Why did it take 2 months to duplicate it? You didn't even take that long to duplicate our traders agreement. We may have well have simply made additional copies and saved the copying fees at Kinko's.....

    (The above is all good natured teasing, I was just quoting one of our traders who visits your website). Hey, "....sincerest form of flattery"...and all that..

    Good Luck!!! (Just being sociable)....

    Another note: We don't charge the ECN pass throughs at all? And the stuff about "multiple platforms" is ok, but we (and most) prefer Redi / Arca anyway. Rates are fair to all concerned.

    (I figure we can save our elite friends a lot of time comparing apples to oranges)...:)

     



  21. I always wondered why they were so far away...ouch

    never thought about that

    Robert
     
  22. i came so close to getting nailed by that little ecn game so i went into my tools/options on my order entry platform and activated a safety option that warns me if my order is 51 cents above the ask(nyse) or 51 cents below the bid(nyse).
     
  23. (taken from islands web site)

    Fee Schedule

    Island is pleased to announce its first price change since June of 1998.

    Effective March 1, 2002, the subscriber takeout fee will drop from 25 cents per hundred shares to 19 cents. In addition, the rebate for adding liquidity will increase from 10 cents per hundred shares to 11 cents. This represents a 47% price cut. The cost for an Island subscriber that adds and removes liquidity in equal amounts will now be only $0.0004 per share. That is only 4 cents per hundred shares.
     
  24. Looks like ISLD is gearing up for the REDI/ARCA merger. Good to see competition thrives in the ECNs.

    Question is for firms that give rebates on these fees (some don't even pass-thru the fees), will they be giving the increase rebate?
     
  25. Don,

    As the competitive business man that you are, are you going to counter Echo's aggressive pricing schedule?

    Just a thought. :D
     
  26. Not too aggressive, just "echoing" ours. We are already way ahead, we don't charge any ECN fees (check the fine print). And, on a lighter note, pricing, though important, isn't the only thing. :)
     
  27. Nice tip Bryan, good idea.

    Thanks cashonly and Vinny1 for answering my questions.

    Eric:cool:
     
  28. LOL....


    ECHO didn't take the name because of that.

    It's a high end trading station/platform/ server backed up by another and another, and another.....



    Robert
     
  29. Just a note. The next time the Ultimate Fighting Championship is in Las Vegas, I am going to have Jeff Dewitt(ECHOTRADE) and Don Bright(Bright Trading) fight it out to see who has the lowest rates. On the serious side, splitting pennies is getting a little silly.
    I try to concentrate more on service, systems etc. I am going to sit
    out this price war on the sidelines, hopefully with no collateral damage. I think traders should concentrate more on trading. If you can't make money at .01 per share, then rates are probably not the problem. Of course Jeff & Don are friends , but I think everyone gets the point.



    The REDI/ARCA merger can only help. I think down the road, some of the smaller ECN's will merge or possibly be alligned with a regional exchange. Maybe Vito,Don or Robert have some more insight.



    Gene Weissman
    Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C.
    gweissman@stocktrade.net
     
  30. Don't you hate feeling like a complete dumbass? When I did it it was only 100 shares however. Big postit on my screen says "watch the handle!"
     
  31. Thanks, Gene, I always like levity in a thread that's getting a little tense. Like L&W, VB keeps commissions competitive but adds value in other ways. We choose to add value by increasing a trader's profits through development rather than finding new ways to slice the commission dollar.

    As far as ECN's, VB is still mainly a listed trading firm. I am most interested in anything the ECN's can do to truly compete with the NYSE. I don't hold out much hope, though. As Don Bright said in a post earlier, the NYSE does a phenomenal job, and I think the ECN's have their work cut out for them in grabbing part of the NY pie.
     
  32. Personally I like the price competition that I see occurring on these boards, and I have no idea why any successful high-volume trader would even consider a firm that doesn't offer the lowest commissions. For me, trading is a business, and a quarter of a cent is a substantial savings over a year!!

    50 Million Shares x 0.25 cents = $125,000 year

    I think I'd rather keep that money, then give it to somebody else.


    Regards,

    Slave2Market
     
  33. We have a winner! I thought 1 million a month was big and bad, but now I see 50 million a year , and I bet a 200 million dude is just lurking and ready to post any day now.

    I know there are such animals in the zoo, but I think the Elite Trader board must have 95% of all such 'whales' from the tone on the posts.

    No wonder Don Bright hangs here. :p
     
  34. Slave2Market,

    I have no problem giving traders who trade low rates, but in the current environment it's getting silly. Many firms in the NYC area have rates so low, that they don't make enough money to maintain their firm infrastructure. Our volume traders pay .01 per share have systems & software maintained . If a firm offers rates of .005 per share, would you put your money up there? I would think twice, maybe several times.


    Gene Weissman
    Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C.
    gweissman@stocktrade.net
     
  35. Come on Gene, get in here!!! I see you have decided to help finance this "WWF of Wall Street".....:) And, BTW, just where did you get that url of "stocktrade"....I really like it!!!
    Thanks again for dinner, I really enjoyed chatting with you, and I hope you get another motorcycle soon (with electrified chrome handlebars to keep the bad guys away).
     
  36. Yeah Gene's got that right....
    when a thread starts about whose fees are better , or what pay-site is the best, a 100 posts go up in a day
    if a post about a chart goes up(which is trading after all) maybe 5 or six people will give their opinions
    it makes you wonder how many traders are actually on this board compared to people trying to sell stuff
     
  37. It simply means that good rate is very important, especially in this trading environment.
     
  38. Close call.. But the winner is Bright "edge"ing out Echo for the lowest rates prize! (only among prop firms - IB's .005 still beats you guys when you trade large size)

    It's those ECN fees. .0040 (ARCA), .00625 (INCA). That's a 40% and 62% increase over .01.

    I agree, if you can't make money off of .01 then you got bigger problems, and fees are not the only thing to look at.
    Much credit to all the firms for keeping the prices so low..
     

  39. Not always with the cap on commissions at Echo and Bright


    Our LU trader pays less than .000025 for a trade

    ____________________________________________
     
  40. I try to not have an opinion on the market and charts. It's kills my trading.

    I have long set up and short sets up, opening orders, and a few filter systems I run. I play them when the market dictates to play them. So that's why I avoid those posts lately

    Robert
     
  41. I'll have to disagree on that one. I believe low commissions are the single most important factor in making money at this game. It is quite possible for a guy to churn his account or make a little bit of money at $.01 , but if commissions are lowered to $.0075, this could mean an extra $100-200K in the trader's pocket. For that kind of money, I'll pay for my own computer, flat panel screens, and T1 line.

    :cool: :D
     
  42. OK, HOLD IT!....We DO have a direct link to Island (and all the rest), and we DO NOT charge for this direct link, or any other link to ECN's. We don't have the need to charge additional fees. We simply absorb the costs, and keep the bookkeeping simple.
     

  43. And of course when IB goes down / or your internet connection goes down while you have 5000 shares on .... it doesn't matter that you can't reach customer service in 2 seconds to get out?

    I put the ability to get out of my positions in an a hurry no matter what very high. Which is where IB lacks. (hey just read the brokers comments) meanwhile all of the pro firms will get you out in a hurry

    Robert Tharp
     
  44. I agree that complete incompentence from the hardware aspect (system freezing, etc.) could obviously be costly to a trader.

    But in my previous post I was refering to professional firms, not a retail outfit like IB.

    :)
     
  45. Robert,

    I can't agree with you more. I remember one day where all at once 3 things happened: 1. Greenspan spoke, 2. My electricity burped, 3. My UPS did also (now at the bottom of a landfill). In 5 seconds, I had Bob on the line and said "Market me out of all my positions NOW." A few seconds later, he said "Done". The market acted like it always used to when Greenspan spoke and if I had been 30 seconds later, I would have been out 5 figures!
     
  46. Don, when you say you have a direct link to ISLD, do you mean that your traders can actually post a bid or offer to the ISLD book and show up on Level 2 under ISLD or does it mean that they can just trade with ISLD, as well as all the other ECN's,by taking their offers and hitting their bids via the REDI Ecn?
     
  47. RTharp, i see that Echo charges a max of $25 per NYSE/AMEX trade. My question is: what if your order for 10,000 shares gets filled 4 separate times of 2500 shares each. Do you pay $25 total or would you pay a total of $100 if you are paying .01 a share?
     
  48. Robert and cashonly,

    I also agree with you completely, having good customer service is so essential.

    I'm sure all the Echo traders are familiar with the "*" key when you call, the Echo trade desk answers within two rings. I have only had to call it for questions on how to set up computers and such, but a couple of times that I called them I barely heard it ring and I had someone on the phone helping me.

    Trading from my home would be impossible if it wasn't for the countless hours Rob from Echo spent with me on the phone configuring my DSL line to handle 3 computers. He actually took control of my computer and did all the software configuration for me, I have not found another firm that goes out of their way this much to help traders before.

    I agree with Gene that I would be willing to pay more for the service, it is not all about rates, luckily I could not find a better rate structure than Echo for my trading.

    Trade well,

    C

    PS - cashonly, are you the same Cash that is the remote trading manager for Bright? ie: You get paid based on how many people you convince to join Bright and trade remote?
     
  49. I am the same. I am the Remote Trading Manager for Bright. If you look at my profile you'll see that's what it says. I just don't use it as a tag line here because of all the ire it incites. :eek:
     
  50. If I click on Isld on my montage, and place a bid it shows up on Island. If I choose Redi vs. Island then it shows up as Redi (in the RediBook). I just tested it to be sure, with MSFT (I know you guys are experts on this stuff, and I wanted to be completely sure).....
     
  51. RTharp, how is it that Echo can charge ECN fees and Bright doesn't?
     
  52. Let us not forget that Echo also gives traders the ISLD rebates, which Bright does not? Why does Bright keep this for themselves instead of giving it to the traders?
     
  53. Don,

    I believe REDI+(software) has links to ECN's ARCA,REDI,ISLD & INCA. On NASDAQ you should be able to Bid-Offer on all these ECN's during market hours and your order will show as a ECN Bid-Offer on NASDAQ Level II. INCA,ISLD & REDI are available pre-market from 7:30 am . After 4:02pm ,traders can use ISLD,REDI & Selectnet(to 5:45pmEST) for NASDAQ. INCA is not available on REDI+ after 4:02pm. You have to hit INCA on Selectnet , after 4:02 pm on REDI+ software. Not everyone has the same routes on REDI+(REDI+ software can be customized for each firm), so traders check with your introducing Broker. ECN & Selectnet hours are subject to change , so if ECN trading hours change let me know. ISLD & REDI are Open after hours until 8PM. ECN & Selectnet hours are always subject to change.

    Like Bright, we include ECN fees in our pricing(no Xtra charge)so we don't give ISLD rebates.

    Gene Weissman
    Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C.
    gweissman@stocktrade.net


    PS Don,I will try come down to Vegas next time the UFC has
    a show there and I can get away...
     
  54. Since we don't charge, we don't get rebates either...come on, that doesn't make sense (even in a silly "nickel and dime" argument like this).
    If you want us to charge you $40, and rebate back $25 sometimes, we can work that out....:)

    BTW, if you place a 10,000 share order, and it is filled with seperate, smaller amounts, the total commission is the same Maximum "cap" amount. I am not sure about others, but ours is that way.
     
  55. In my opinion, i think it would be better for the trader to get the Island rebates. Starting March 1 , the ISLD rebate will be .0011 per share,an increase from .001 per share. So if you trade on ISLD,provide liquidity, and trade 1,000,000 shares per month, you'll get a check from Island for $1,100 every month.
     

  56. If your order is filled for 2500 shares 4 times on a 10,000 lot order than your cost is $25

    Robert
     
  57. Rob,thanks for your reply. So when does the commission on listed orders stop being a max of $25,when you do what?
     
  58. I think I can speak for Rob on this one. The "cap" is at $25, for 2500 shares, or for 25,000 shares on one order (at either firm, I believe).
     
  59. Vinny1

    Don covered it. There is a cap no matter what and that's with Echo and Bright

    Robert
     
  60. So the max is $25 on one order no matter how many shares I take it. So i assume if you put another order an hour later for 10,000 shares, that's another commission of $25?
     
  61. 10,000 shares at 10AM = $25
    25,000 shares at 11AM = $25

    That is how the Cap works, $25 max for any single trade.
     
  62. Got it. Thanks for the replies.
     
  63. This cap rap is crap. The cap IS DEAD. Of the half a dozen listed traders I know that trade over 5 milion shares per month, less than 1% of all trades are capped. Decimalization, growing listed fragmentation, erratic markets, and light volume have virtually eradicated the effectiveness of the cap. Getting filled in size (at a decent price) is a ugly chore today, at least versus two years ago.
     
  64. Unfortunately, it is true that it is harder to trade in size than it was 2 years ago. But it is not impossible. I know of numerous traders that are significantly over that 1% figure today and for some of them 1/4 to 1/3 of all their trades have a cap. It really all depends on an individual's particular trading style.
     
  65. According to Don and Rob, their firm's commissions are capped at $25 on one single order, even if that order results in several partials.
     
  66. The cap only affects about 200-250 of our traders (pair traders mostly, some big bank players), and it is a way to reduce overall costs to them. Many traders do more than 2500 shares at a pop.

    I agree that it doesn't matter to most, and yet each person needs to weigh the whole picture when pricing anything.
     

  67. The markets have changed no doubt about that.

    There are still trades who trade size though. There is a trader at my firm who loves LU trades in blocks of 5700 and 9700 shares and sometimes more. He is Paying less than anyone else at the firm when you include the cap.

    Robert
     
  68. Robert,

    One important question. Does the guy make money? We had a couple of big guns im the past that imploded. Many times big
    size does not make big P & L. Our best traders trade 2000 share positions in NYSE. Just curious.




    Gene Weissman
    Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C.
    gweissman@stocktrade.net
     
  69. So you're saying size doesn't matter? :p I've seen traders that do size big enough to get a cap rebate be negative P&L at the end of the month and be up thousands with the cap rebate. And I've seen traders who do large size be up and down like yo-yo's day in and day out. And I've seen traders who do size blow out. On the other hand, I've seen traders who trade a few hundred shares of 20-60 stocks a day making 4 figures nearly every day. So, in answer to that age old question, size doesn't matter. What matters is what you do with the size of trade you use:D Some people work better with large positions, some with small.
     
  70. cashonly,

    My point is exactly what you are saying. Many traders think that big size means big P &L and that is not always the case. It
    is much harder to "trade" size especially in this .01 market. If the
    Market in IBM is BID 99.89 ASK 99.01, can I buy 10,000 shares at
    99.01? Most of the time the answer is "no". In the current market environment(.01 speads) , trading & especially daytrading size , may not mean bigger P & L. I think traders that are trading only for rebates would be wise to trade smaller size and make money off their P & L, not just generate commissions for
    their firm.



    Gene Weissman
    Lieber & Weissman Sec., L.L.C.
    gweissman@stocktrade.net
     
  71. yep he is making money still

    The rebate on the cap is one of the main keys for him though.
    Robert Tharp
     
  72. Just a quick point here (since we are sometimes accused of promoting more trading to bring in more commissions to the firm(s).

    The cap is cap to the trader, so any shares they trade in excess of 2500 per trade do not make the firm any more money at all...it is merely a way for the traders to save money.

    (I know you guys are aware of this, but some of the readers may not be)..

    So if everyone want to trade 2400 shares at a time (or less), that is fine with us!! Net trader profits is what we want.
    :)

    Don
     
  73. Don,

    I know you,Robert & myself all feel the same way about P & L. Let the traders make P & L and the commissions will take care of themselves! Anyway, I will be on vacation from March1-10 , so I will be off the boards at about 5pm today.


    Gene Weissman
    Lieber & Weissman Sec.,L.L.C.
    gweissman@stocktrade.net
     
  74. I am a bit confused here. From what I have read here on the threads, you are making it sound as if Echo is a franchise operation. Echo isn't a franchise are they? I thought they owned their own firm...am I wrong?
     
  75. ECHO definitely is not a franchise, he is referring to another competitor of Echo and Bright that you may or may not know is a franchise.
     
  76. I will ask Mr. Tharp or Jeff D. to respond. I originally thought Echo was not franchising....but I have heard a different story as well.

    Let's hope that they have not gone that route.....??
     
  77. Don,

    I asked the head office and I can assure you that they are not a franchise, and I am shocked by the level of unprofessionalism that you display in trying to start rumors here to that effect.

    Every Echo trader is registered with Echo and all fall under the same organization. Please do not let your haste to start rumors about your competitors get in front of your good judgment about doing your homework or calling Echo to check facts first.


    Read this thread near the bottom on which firm is a franchise

    http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3235




    Robert
     
  78. rtharp-
    I can't believe you're shocked by that.
    typical Bright if you ask me.
     
  79. I just spent 20 minutes on the phone vehemently defending ECHO (not that you / they need my help)...and I felt that I was being lied to by a guy who says that there are seperate entities (LLC's) (franchises). As you know, I promoted Echo over (xxx) because we all know that franchising causes major problems for traders.

    So if there are in fact no other LLC's involved with Echo...then I am actually very glad. I prefer the "friendly competition" over the nastiness of others.

    I am serious about this, and am sorry that it was mis-interpreted.
     
  80. ISLD beats NYSE & NYSE+ many times over on listed, and also makes premarkets/postmarket trading possible.

    Also, you pointed out an essential flaw in SLK being one of the largest clearing agents, then offering their huge inventory for internal cross match vs sending the orders out of their house to other clearing agents.

    Let's view this:
    SLK has dozens of brokerage firms of all composition and sizes (Hedges, Mutuals, Proprietaries, Institutional, Floor and Specialist accounts, etc.). Hence the natural objective of yielding additional profit from self clearance or similar objective.

    Redi+ is their trading platform, and has been so sufficiently trashed on this forum that you only need search on "redi" to see how thoroughly out of date it is.

    Redi is also an ECN (see above component mixture of their inventory origin).

    Internal match was sold to the "investing public" as a "superior" means of "obtaining best bid/offer".

    The reality is far from that based on the comments from the traders who have shared their personal insights, experiences and questions. Basically its detractors out weigh its supports by a factor of over 3:1.

    Anytime, in fractions of time, anytime an order whether of size or 100shares is held up within a computer matching exchange instead of being posted publically and shown immediately on its tranch (level within the Level 2's & Level 3's) then the marketplace doesn't know about it. Hence, no one is really aware about your order. Since the "house / SLK" holds that order, you can be sure those customers (including house traders) who are more favored than the average customer / brokerage client, are NOT getting the best bid/offer. Since these customers (us traders) of these brokerage firms / customers to SLK are 2 steps removed from SLK, then

    NO ONE REALLY Cares whether or not you're meeting your profit/stoploss goals!

    So your comments regarding 1sec / 5sec delays should be avoided at all costs. Redi ECN, well it speaks for itself. Uh, how did they get the money to buy ARCA?

    (Hint, take a look at your balance sheets)
     
  81. Great commentary limit, thanks.. I must say that in the case of Interactive Brokers' internal trade matching (the "hidden" Timberhill orders that you get filled with) - its the fastest fills I've ever seen on any platform, and a source of extra liquidity - so I'm all for my broker trading against me in that sense.

    I prefer the Auto-routing done in my software (ala IB's TWS) as opposed to the routing being done by the ECN (ala ARCA). Certainly the routing being done on the back-end is considerably slower.
     
  82. Well, just a minor rebuttle. I agree that "matching" within Redi can take a nano second ro two...but when we choose our destination (such as going directly to Isld) then it ceases to be an issue. With 90% of our trades going to NYSE anyway,and the balance going to Isld (or so it seems), then we don't experience that slowness at all.

    I won't bother debating the software at other firms, as you said, it's been beaten to death. I still feel that it all works fine, and one won't help anyone make any more money than the other, when used correctly.

    Good trading!!

    Don
     
  83. We have direct links to the major ECN's, we just don't charge our traders the fees (be happy to start if that helps anyone..:) )

    Don
     
  84. Don,

    What route do most of your traders use to access NYSE? While I have been trading Nasdaq for years and tens of thousands of trades, I have only done a handful of NYSE trades. The biggest downside of NYSE, from my ignorant opinion, is the slow speed.

    What routes do your traders find to work best? Do they typically just place market orders and hope for relatively quick fills from the specialists, or do they place a high percentage of limit orders? Are order cancellation delays a problem for them? (I understand this is one of the biggest short-comings of the NYSE Direct system.)

    Thanks,
    -Eric
     
  85. I am a nasdaq trader as well trying to make it in an NYSE world because many of my former trading stocks are now single digits and NYSE still has stocks in the 40's, 50's, 60's, etc.

    The biggest problem I have is the spreads. Sure you get price improvement every now and then, but I was trading nsm today. It must have a had a 30 cent spread 50 plus times today.

    It's a 20 dollar stock that trades millions of shares. A comparable stock on the nasdaq is say lltc. When has LLTC ever had a 30 cent bid ask spread?

    Never?

    The nyse traders will come back with, yeah but try and get out of 10K lltc at one print and see what happens.

    And I agree, but don't trade that big.

    Anyway, I don't want to rant, but trading the nyse vs. the nasdaq is like night and day to me.

    Nyse IMO is more suited for fewer positions and bigger size. I like more positions and smaller size myself.
     
  86. absolutely correct.

    One one contrary note (i.e. contradicting myself) there are a number of significant platform robust stability issues with Redi+ as a direct order entry platform.

    for example, although the footprint of the software is absolute huge and has not been compiled to take advantage of the Pentium III chipset or IV or Xeon or otherwise, especially dual motherboard configurations, the platform does have some excellent features.

    Instant cancel-replace-drop .01 or add .01 (used to be drop 1/16 or add 1/16) or any other fraction of value.

    Customizable Level I / II order entry configuration, with selected sub-keys or ones choosing.

    The ability to 2x click on the desired ECN and submit or prefill the order entry tabs, awaiting order submission.

    So, you see, I can find the good in some things....

    (I think therefore I trade...)
     
  87. We use "superdot" and when you are comfortable with the rules involved, the timing makes sense. We all get "time priority" and even though it may take a few seconds for the Specialist to respond, you are still entitled to the trades. Remember, we have actual people there handling a lot of this...

    And we get "price improvement" a lot. I get improvement on about one third of my trades daily...this really adds up. The "best market" price prevails over the greedy MM. The NX ECN works in a similar fashion. And, of course, we can route to the other ECN"s if we see a better price.

    Since there are more opportunities (opening only, MOC's - like this last week), we prefer the NYSE. But our guys can trade whatever they like.

    Don