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Mentorship (4th year still not profitable)

  1. A little background: I've traded/studied the technical part of trading (FX/Commodities) for almost 4 years every single day, testing out new ideas, analyzing, logging down, backtesting etc however hundreds of system and patterns that I come out with just stop working. It might work for 3-5 years on backtesting, if I put it onto another pair it stops. Or it might only work for a certain period of time. I am from the little red dot.

    I am looking for a mentor to guide as well as teach day in day out. I will not and never give out your systems or strategies. I am willing to work 20 hours a day or do anything that helps me towards achieving profitability. I am willing and desperate to sacrifice anything in return for trading success (Even my life). Flying over to your country to learn is also fine with me. I do not know what I can give in return but I hope my willingness to succeed can make up for it because I will never give up.

    So if anyone that has already succeeded and looking for a student to impart your knowledge, please do tell me, I may not be the brightest but I will make it up with hard work, I will make sure it will be a good decision and you will never regret it.

    Thank you.
  2. I do not understand what value would a mentor get from teaching you from the ground up how to be profitable ? Unless you have a hefty budget as a tuition fee, you will likely end up with some scammer.

    What quantitative skills do you have ?
  3. This is why you are no good at trading. A stupid trade.

    You don't need a mentor.

    Just do something else.
  4. Stop trading.
  5. Reading thousands of trading books, attending tens of trading courses, reading tons of market reviews/reports/analysis .... might not help.
    In fact, it might contaminate your mind.

    I doubt any mentor who is successful in trading is going to impart his trading skills.
    because that trading skills is priceless.
    successful trader doesn't need to earn money by coaching.

    If you can't find a mentor who is successful in trading, you have to develop your own holy grail.
    Alternatively as what someone suggested, stop trading.
  6. What is your current approach for backtesting ideas? What platform do you use?
  7. I might be wrong but FX markets are a bit too random i.e. sudden massive fluctuations occur more often. You might want to go into paper trade mode with FX for a little bit and get to know yourself as a FX trader a little bit.

    Also, might want to switch from day trading to more of a position trading non FX markets.

    Millions of systems and advises out there, beware that you do not get conned by education companies.
  8. If it resonates with you, find and do Jack Hershey drills here in the archives. Build a glossary. Build an ignore list <- essential.

    Jack talks about learning how to learn and how to know when you are learning something correctly or not.

    Extremely in-depth market knowledge - to the point of incomprehensible but can be understood by doing the drills he suggests.

    The drills build perception from a granular marketview as well as builds long term memory.

    With that said, The suggestions of stop trading are wise. If you don’t understand why you’re not profitable, all you are learning is how to fail and all the associated trauma. There’s a point where this becomes irreversible.

    Start a thread, post an annotated chart with your log, invite to comment.
  9. You don't need a mentor so much as you need to stop trading forex/commodities. At the very least trade something that is mean-reverting so that price isn't flying every which way. If you have no money, experiment with the Q, or SPY, or DIA. One resource: Trading the NQ.
  10. ====4th year still not profitable===

    that is normal, nothing is wrong
  11. Agree, most of mentors only teach basic and insufficient skills.

    We need to do this part time for many years, first.
  12. You are ready to find your way. You know you don't know. Humility is KEY.
    This is the first step for successful trading.
    Mentors were useful 20/30 years ago.
    Because information was not free at that time, you needed to learn informal rules, people to work with / avoid, etc.
    Today? Nope. The best mentor is yourself.
    Everyone got access to tons of free information / graphs.
    Your edge is your brain.
    4 years is nothing. Do your homework 1/2, 3 more years.
    And one day you will see what others won't.
    Keep the faith! Lots of losers / naysayers here.

  13. Let me see if I can help.

    I see that you are trading fx and commodities

    do not trade those futures that hardly move.
    eg audusd hardly move. so focus on other things.
    You can see in my journal that I don't like to trade those futures that has small day range.

    choose the appropriate trading session (asian, european, US session).
    lately commodities hardly move during asian session.
    so don't trade commodities during asian session.
    But be careful because things might change.

    look at Nikkei. it has not been moving for years.
    so we wouldn't want to touch that. past few days it is moving.
    so that's where we put focus.

    if you give more more details of what u are doing, we can help u better.
  14. consol.jpg

    Look what happens when you trade in consolidation zone without volatility to break you out.
  15. its pretty easy to make money lol just check out my youtube
  16. outliers.jpg

    You have to restrict trading to outliers.. prev session high low.. intraday high low.. when you restrict entries to outliers, your trade has a higher chance of going into profit. Combine that with volatility, and boom.. volatility is being gamed out. So only structural liquidations leads to momentary vol or news events.
  17. Most profitable day traders do not need tuition money, especially given the hazard of distractions and missed signals. Paying someone who is NOT a successful trader is a crap shoot as to value. Plus, even someone who is willing to mentor realizes that despite one's best effort, the likelihood of a student's failure is substantial...and who wants to be part of that?

    A number of competencies have to be gained to be able to do this including technical proficiency and real time recognition skills which are doomed to failure without appropriate behavioral disciplines.

    Acquiring these competencies takes time and effort and 4 years is not particularly long. You are simply not there yet and most will quit before they can develop the necessary qualities to succeed.
  18. break.jpg
  19. ROFLMAO but i have to agree!
  20. There's a good recent book by one of ET's top stockpickers about how to prosper in robot-driven markets.
  21. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: = "What he said!!"
  22. Um..this is probabally heretical what i am going to say as it deviates from trading orthodoxy but........the markets cares not whether you are humble or prideful or even arrogant. Neither does it care if you are rich or poor. Neither does it care if you are smart or .30 short of a dollar. Ugly or pretty. Male or female. Actually, the market doesn't care at all about ANYTHING. It is not a person with a personality. It is a conglomeration of buyers and sellers trying to find an edge and a reason to take a trade.

    So...find an edge and work that over and over. It is a process. Focus on the process not the money. Let your SL's be your capital preservation as you find, discover, implement, adapt your edges.
  23. Usually when I read this I think 'do you have some kind of approach worked out, and probably more importantly, how did you arrive at it?'

    Part of the problem might be that there's a desire for a purely intellectual solution to the challenge of discretionary trading, whereas in reality it's constantly adapting and adjusting to changing market conditions, something that's unavoidably hard on human beings... o_O
  24. You sure that the indexes you mentioned are mean reverting? If you can find a true mean reverting series with low enough cost, you can make lots of $$$
  25. Yes, because they are for the most part based on stocks, which revert to the mean of PE ratios. Commodities don't. Neither does forex.

    And, yes, one can make good money simply by understanding the location of price with regard to the mean/median and the extremes.
  26. Interesting, how far would you be prepared to go?

    After we found out what the hollywood Thots are prepared to do with guys like Weinstein in order to get a head in that business..

    Assuming your mentor wanted payment, Kevin Spacey style, what would you be prepared to do and how often? :D:D
  27. Marketsurfer was ET's top stockpicker IF you faded all his calls, like some here did, you would have a made a fortune.
  28. You assume that P/E itself is stationary. That is simply not true. Earnings change all the time. News affect companies all the time. Moreover, companies also move with the general market. how are you going to use P/e
  29. It needn't be stationary. The mean is an average of the range from high to low. The PE of the S&P was 15 for more than a century, until 2000. Now it's closer to 25. Make of that what you will.

    When the PE gets too far above the mean, professionals take profits or even short. When the PE drops below the mean, they buy. Basic market dynamics.
  30. I believe that the school of hard knocks is best mentor you will ever have when it comes to trading. However, you need to adhere to three things in order to survive its painful lessons and be able to reach the other side of the learning curve without being knocked out of the trading business.
    1) Trade small> trade management
    2) Discipline > self-control> patience > wait for the right entry point
    3) Keep a journal> write down why you took the trade and what can be done better to improve the outcome.

    Good luck
  31. wtf? you are willing to give up your life for trading success? lol. My advice would be to continue a career/profession/business or learn a new career/profession/business whilst you swing trade using end of day data. I would not put your life on hold for trading as it may never happen.

    in terms of strategies i would forget everything you know, strip everything back and try and formulate a strategy which is solely based on a simple concept. For example monthly/weekly/daily open/close/low high levels. If an instrument cannot hold above its weekly open is there an opportunity to enter get short and minimise your risk?
  32. If you are going to stay on this path:

    You are smart to try and find a winning trader who will mentor you asap.

    And yes.. developing a personal relationship is best. Most people will never be able to do this, but doing this should be your goal.

    Go to bed thinking of ways to achieve this goal.


    Most Gurus-for-hire; well you know... I don't need to use words like "posers, hustlers, liars, scammers, thieves".
  33. Trading is sometimes just a relatively simple matter of changing your mindset and outlook and collective approach;

    Don't look at trading like a fun video game, and/or a random casino game. -- Look at it like a war zone, and you're the General...leading your troops, or money, into the battlefield.

    Would you take a random, whimsical chance or guess where to put your man's lives at stake...of course not, you would plan and consider every triggering detail and dynamic variable to the best of your knowledge. Same thing with trading.

    I could tell you more about my exact, specific approach...But I would have to kill you afterwards.
  34. You'll find many successful traders say it's taken them well over a decade to the achieve their desired results. You should already know this if you were doing actual due diligence and research on this field and performance results.

    I'm sure all of us would have LOVED to have a successful mentor to help show the way. The reality is they have ZERO reason to spend their time helping you, when they have already paid their dues in years of toiling for a working method.

    Are you listening to yourself? :confused: Why on Earth would anyone trust a stranger on the net with information gained only by blood, sweat, and many tears? Anyone being given any special info would be all the more likely to spill the beans since they didn't have to go through the time and pain of developing it.

    That means nothing to a successful trader who has already put in the work- it's assumed you already are putting in crazy hours to learn.

    A key aspect of those who succeed is having persistence- sticking with learning regardless of the number of failures experienced. You are basically throwing in the towel and pleading for help - that's a bad sign.

    Sacrificing your life? :confused: Again are you listening to what you're saying- what good is learning how to trade if it comes at the cost of your life? That reeks of emotional desperation. Trading is not for everyone and at some point you either succeed, or move on to greener fields.

    You haven't even considered what you would give in return. Willingness to succeed? That would barely work in a real job interview. If it took you 15 long years to figure out how to trade, what could someone offer you to have you spend time as a tutor teaching them and potentially compromising your own system?

    The key is figuring out a "generic" system that can be tailored for the current market that can deal with market changes- not some "holy grail" static system that aces all back testing. You need to have leaps of intuition and I think some luck with careful observation to spot recurring natural patterns of support and resistance that you can form your system around.

    Look at the stats- over 90% of those who try don't succeed. Either you can beat the odds and make it on your own, or if lucky, you have a relative/friend who might assist in guiding you. You can't expect a stranger to help teach you what cost them so much of their own personal sacrifice.
  35. Many so called me nor are fraud but There are a few good ones also. Do you have funds to pay for a good mentor?
  36. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:. Well said.

    No need to come here to show off or beat up on others?

    Market doesn't care but it is hard to improve if you think you already know it all, prideful, arrogant, and won't take advice....

    But I agree with the second statement.
  37. took me like 16 yrs before i got it . /goodluck
  38. You don't need mentors. Do the following (yes, it is unconventional):

    You need to get back to basic first, even if you are a technical trader. If you trade commodities, perhaps you need to know your commodities, their seasonality, what affects their prices...., then you are ready to use the technical tools. If you trade FX, perhaps study the politics, central banks... then apply the technical.

    Read trading books, do research but don't follow their recipes, they won't work. Get off the beaten path and you will likely do better.:D

    Good luck.
  39. You can learn a lot if you look over other people's shoulders to see what they do and if successful - to get the how of it !
    Even unsuccessful traders can be useful to see what NOT to do. And it will cost you nothing.
    Journals are a great place to learn as they often explain their reasoning and give their results.
    Mix with other traders in the pub etc.
    Good luck
    Oh and find your own time frame and instruments and treat them like a demanding mistress.
  40. Down playing mentorship is hurtful if this fellow takes you to heart.

    People who align themselves with successful mentors; well.. it should be obvious.

    Most of the greats in all fields, sought out mentors and allies.

    What most Did Not Do was try to figure it all out on their own... but there are exceptions.

    Btw- it is hard for a longtime losing trader to get back to (winning) basics; obvious reasons.

    A losing trader of four years who will not abandon his quest is looking for serrious and actionable advise.

    With life in general and areas of gambling/speculation in particular:

    Mentorship not only can be make or break for many, but it can also save years of time, lost opportunities and lost money, as well as helping one to become better than otherwise possible.
  41. Right, we are monkeys, trying to duplicate and understand why someone bought or sell is a good approach. "Why them and not me?" is the best catalyst.

    This is where you are wrong. Trading is not tennis, golf or poker.
    Except for the Turtles in the 70's, could you give me an example of successful mentorship ?
    There are really few. Because trading is selfish and personal.
    You will not spend hours / days / months to explain trading. Better trade than educate if you got an edge that you don't want others to copy.
    The people who educate / mentor are 95% sellers / losers.
    The remaining 5% mentor friends and family, not unknown people.

    And if you are looking for respect and glory, you will write a book rather than mentor wannabe traders.
    Aka Vic Sperandeo, Stan Weinstein, Marty Schwartz, Larry Williams etc.

  42. honestly speaking, 4 years is quite short.

    if you got passion and determination, then go try harder and smarter.
  43. 1. Yes... most mentors for hire are mostly posers and hustlers.

    2. Most winning traders I know had mentors and allies along the way.

    I respect your views and I am not going to go back and forth on this

    The poster asking for help has been given quite a few ideas to consider
  44. You write truth.

    However, I have know people who become winners almost immidatly by falling in with the right people. This sort of thing usually depends on the inefficiencies the group is exploiting.

    Seeking out high-level winners who one can interact with is a worthy goal. Obviously most will not be able to do this.
  45. Every experienced trader on ET is a mentor.
    Take Maverick and other seasoned posters like Morse for example, their trading methods and style are poles apart from mine, most times posts are way over my head, but I've been trading 30+ years and still keenly pay attention to them. Pays to hang around and listen to the smart (intelligent) guys and gals.
    Not so many gals around but they too are very clever.
    Maestro was a clever cookie but dunno where he went.
  46. Would you mind sharing what is the title of the book?
  47. truetype said:
    There's a good recent book by one of ET's top stockpickers about how to prosper in robot-driven markets.

  49. Traders of the New Era

  50. How to Fade ET's Top Stock Picker and Retire Early

  51. Reviews on amazon look good.
  52. Just get the book
  53. OP you need to join a prop firm. I have been trading professionally for about 10 years and about 3 years before that trying to learn at home.
    You need low commission structure and to sit around profitable traders and learn from them.. although traditional prop firms are few and far between now, a lot of them struggle now.

    I'm not saying this is the rule that is never broken, but I have honestly never met a trader that was successful just teaching themselves at home. By successful I don't mean they can make a few hundred dollars a month profit. I mean live off it.

    Ive probably worked with over 100 traders in my time and very very few people are drawing lines on charts/moving averages, risking 10 ticks to make 30 etc. As with everything in life if you do what everyone else is doing you will not get results. If trading was as easy as risk 5 ticks to make 15 and buy support levels we would all be millionaires. I made the exact same mistakes as you, I read books non stop and followed all the rules and got nowhere. You need to think differently to everyone else.
  54. I agree with everything you said but take exception to this. You see, OP was not looking for a mentor but a master so OP could be the "apprentice". OP wanted to travel to and colocated with him/her to learn to trade his/her way.

    I have many mentors here on ET. They provided me with their wisdoms, not their "trade". I don't need to be physically with them, watching how they trade to be successful. Some of my mentors on ET: drcha, for pointing out to me I need to trade using longer time frame; Handle123 telling me to "dance around" my holdings, Maverick74 for pointing out the importance of gamma in a short trade, sle, JackRab.... for explaining to me the subtleties of options and volatility. I am particularly grateful to MrScalper for encouraging me to read charts. None of them gave me their trade secrets or their recipes, only their wisdoms. And you know what? Many probably did not even know they were mentoring me.

    Are they successful traders? I don't know and don't care because what I looked for are their collective wisdoms and not their trading skills.

    Trading is very personal, what works for you usually won't work for me because of personality, psychology and different circumstances.

    Finally, a method that becomes too popular will no longer work because to be profitable you take money away from other traders. Remember the January effect? It was so popular folks wrote books and academic papers on it, now it does not work very well.

    I learn something from your posts too and appreciate it very much.

  55. so, any would be mentors contacted you by now or were you given some solid recommendations for the mentors who mentored so many ET's mentor's advocates in the past?
  56. Excellent reply!

    Perhaps you will private message the poster with the name and location of a prop firm you recommend.

    Some firms offer poor training and horrible deals for new guys

    Some firms have offices where the trader will be hustled for lessons by losing office managers. But the same firm may have a different office location where a new trader really has good traders sincerely trying to help him.

    Hopefully the poster will contact you privately if you do not reach out to him.

    (I am adding you to my people to follow list because you obviously know what you are talking about and you explain yourself well)
  57. Curious if they aren't doing this, what are they doing?
  58. Beautiful ..
  59. (4th year still not profitable)

    Wow, 2300 views on the first day! Looks like you might have a lot of company out there!!
    So don't feel pregnant. Work at it just that much harder to make your 5th year the start of your new and successful trading life.
  60. Reading algos in the order book and trading off the back of them, trading correlations between markets, calendar spreads, paying a lot of money for news services and trading off the back of central bank comments etc, investing in algorithmic execution technology... and a lot of averaging to be honest.

  61. As you have tried so many systems and patterns, it must be that you haven't decided what you need to find. Your search will continue for ever until you decide that.

    There are basically only two strategies - follow or fade - i.e. following the trend or trading the reversal.

    Trend-following demands patience, planning, discipline, building positions, a lot of waiting for set-ups, accepting a lumpy and unpredictable income. It is low risk, modest return, low risk of wipe-out.

    Trading reversals demands decisiveness, quick responses to unexpected situations with incomplete information, opportunism, real-time price monitoring, spontaneity, imagination. This is high risk, dramatic return, risk of wipe-out.

    Personalities can be divided into these two types. trade the right style for your own personality.

    Whatever you do, stop day-trading. It is highest risk, low return, astronomical probability of wipe-out.

  62. What I would expect but I do not understand the last part:

    "...a lot of averaging to be honest"

    Do you mean adding to a losing position, within your risk parameters when there is an edge?

    I think this is what you mean but I do not want to assume.

    Every post you made in this thread is full of really good stuff!
  63. Yup exactly that. Not averaging into oblivion, we all have hard stops on the day where if it gets to "x" we are out.. the guys that don't have that will always eventually blow up. But when you are experienced you know your edge and why things work or don't work and are comfortable adding to positions that are losing. A typical prop trader will be profitable probably 80% of the days. But the losing days generally larger than their winning days because of the averaging. The numbers still add up though.

    Trend following you tend to be all in or all out with a tight stop because they have low win rates. But most people are looking for high probability setups with the occasional big loss and average around the core position.
  64. What services do you use?
  65. Well, he is willing to DIE to find out your approach!
  66. How come the OP hasn't come back here to express his a) willingness to die and b) his appreciation of all those who have posted trying to help him?
  67. Personally I never made much off of news releases, but used RAN Squawk and or Live Squawk over the years. But the guys that carved out an edge in trading comments would have their own Bloomberg Terminals. Some people would pay for upgrades on the squawk services to get a faster connection to central bank's speech so they were hearing the comments a second or so faster than other people.

  68. He's already "gone to meet his Mentor?"
  69. How can one study and aquire this skill?
  70. There are a few courses that teach it, thedaytradingmentor.com nobsdaytrading.com also AXIA futures a prop firm in London have some youtube vids.

    But ultimately there is nothing you can study and next week make money. Its a question of hours in front of the screen practicing and practicing i'm afraid. No shortcuts
  71. Thank you all for taking your time to reply. Sorry for not replying earlier but I've every single post and truly appreciate it. I am talking to a few members.
    I am beyond thankful that they help me knowing I can give nothing in return and only become their competition (which I hope to!).

    I have sent a few prop firms e-mails and will continue to learn as suggested, also picked up a few books, and lots ideas which I will test and study one by one. I will keep everyone posted on my journey and I will make it :)

    Thank you all.
  72. Absolutely!

    Of course having a framework and correct ideas to think about helps many people, including myself. I will watch those videos.

    Gary Kasoarov, Mohammed Ali, Ronda Rousey.. hey.. most of the greats in all fields. speak of putting in serrious work/ time, as well as having good coaching.
  73. True, but it also depend on the student! I am of a particular complexity where mentors would simply give up, because I would anyways in time find my own path and not listen to sage advices - but I do pocket them all in my conscious subconscious, and do consider. Although do not have the capacity to try them all out!

    Mentors/gurus are essential in life for meaningful progress. But we all have differences in how we function as teacher and student, so it is very non-linear what results come to be and how.

    Regarding mentorship, it's more of a happening, than something that can be manufactured. Meaning in a deep mentoring relationship, there are qualities hard to replicate. So yes, while you can and should seek, there's no guarantees involved in any way how it'll turn out. What we hear of success stories and anecdotes, are hindsight and selection biased. Also please consider the fact that a mentoring relationship can be time-bound, it'll always have a definite ending, though we may or may not choose how that ending should be.

    Beggars make poor students though.
    Best bet would be to ask yourself: How do I function as mentor, and how can I progress in my mentoring? When you give, so shall you receive...
  74. Well said. The last paragraph describes the difference that makes the difference!

    The energetic quality of abundance is distinct from that of scarcity. It’s a choice of focus.

    It’s also the reason why the same strategy can produce entirely opposite outcomes, depending on the trader.

    We attract what we focused upon.
  75. Yes yes

    But at the end of the day, this poster should seek out personal relationships with winners, perhaps seeking out- after massive research- the right office in a prop firm. All offices in a firm are not equal.

    No reason to think he should simply backtest harder and try harder as there are obviously big holes that he is unaware of that are hard to totally remedy via posting.

    Btw, Simples, I share some of your shortcomings and attributes.

    Good post. Thanks.



    Reading the posts Tommo has made on this thread 20 times, taking notes and, private messaging him would be smart!!!

    In part because he is accurate and in part because he is offering a new way of looking at things.
  76. dead end
  77. Re Prop Firms:

    Aside from low costs and possible learning...

    Even if you have a winning method:

    You may need or desire to slosh around hundreds of thousands of dollars to make a good living and grow a bankroll.

    Some slosh around millions each day. Many do not have this kind of money lying around in their IB account.


    Need low costs


    A professional platform


    A support group of winners helps... maybe a better way will come along.. new ideas.. etc


    The wrong prop firm or even the wrong office will drain your emotions and money with

    Shit training by losing traders that you will be charged for

    Winning traders with no obligation or desire to help you

    Commissions, fees that are killers
  78. Any real trader potential will share those attributes.

    However, being around those whom you want to emulate is often a good reciple, to become that which you want to emulate.
  79. I applaud your work ethic and dogged pursuit - that is a very fine attribute.

    One of the unfortunate side effects of the electronic markets is the dispersion of traders (the breaking apart of trading groups), the end of the open outcry pits, and the remaining futures prop firms heavily invested in quantitative (automated) trading strategies. Gone are the days of the Chicago, London, NYC, and Singapore prop electronic futures firms mentoring newbies - that disappeared in the early 2000's.

    Might I suggest that you research and learn the requisite programming skills that these prop trading firms are looking for, and get on as an analyst or programmer ? (Python, MatLab, whatever they're asking for in the careers postings) IMHO that would open up a sustainable career path for you in the business.

    If that's out of the question, then please change markets and strategies - 4 years IMHO is long enough to prove out that what you are doing and where you are doing it has no future. As an aside, if I'm not seeing satisfactory progress (good to sexy paper trading metrics; discussions about the timing for going live) with clients by month six into my program then something is amiss.

    I truly wish you good fortune and the very best of luck in your endeavors ! Stay strong and remain positive.
  80. Why?:)
  81. My comments in this thread were mostly geared to US equities

    The book I mentioned covers a bit of what you have been trading, however...

    I would listen closely to whatever Tommo says.
  82. because neither the founders of the props nor their clients know how to trade for a living

    nothing to learn there, and from no one
  83. I agree and in a more general sense I've learned that 99% or more of this industry, at least retail facing is complete BS. Everybody lies, it's ALMOST all a scam. Whoever has replied to this OP in PM and offering to help is prob just a big time suck and rabbit hole unfortunately.
  84. Just curious, have you trade for props before?
    Otherwise, how do you know?

  85. i rarely talk on forums about myself, and how i know what i know

    disagree with my opinions - your right
  86. Sorry, not trying to be intrusive. Respect your rights, so forget what I asked.
  87. no problem, thanks for understanding
  88. Nearly all of the proprietary futures trading firms that I'm familiar with are run by principals who for the most part are somewhat legendary in their trading prowess. The equity prop business model I understand to be vastly different though - I have no experiences in that regard.
  89. No ofense, but selling the product you sell here, your opinion will always be biased in this matter, since you need people to believe that these "traders" actually know how to trade, so that they can believe also that that can be taught(and that someone who knows what he is doing is willing to teach).
    I'm not giving my opinion on the matter, I'm just making an objective, imparcial observation.
  90. 1. I don't know of any futures prop firms that "teach" newbies how to trade. DRW does (or used to) have a college internship program.

    2. Please name one exchange registered Chicago or NYC electronic futures prop firm that does NOT have a really good trader as a firm founder or principle. You can't. (DRW, Optiver, Ronin, Jump, etc. etc. etc.)
  91. for me trading prowess means being able to trade for a living, nothing else, not profitable, not great, not legendary, nothing

    the guys who are principals in anything do not trade for a living
  92. and what is good?
    see above
  93. Have you ever watched a movie called "Margin Call"? It is as good one... At some point, Jeremy Irons, who is "the big boss", feared and revered by others in the firm and in "the street", asks for his analyst to explain what is happening to him as if he(the analyst) were talking to a dog. Even though this is a movie, to me, this reflects perfectly the reality.
  94. the guy is the sponsor so lets not to give him a hard time... at least he is paying for our time here
  95. If you are disputing the resumes of Don Wilson, Bill DiSomma and Paul Gurinas please by all means continue to post about topics you know nothing about. PM a really seasoned and experienced trader like Maverick and ask him if you don't believe me. Google their names. Google the firms I cited above.
  96. i do need to pm anybody since there are no authorities for me on this issue, and i do not give crap about any names...

    and do not call me dude or sporto, ok...

    have a nice day
  97. What Bone is saying is true. I’ve traded at about 4 prop firms over my career. Not everyone that walks through the doors makes money. That’s life. But everyone of the firms was full of people making a lot of money trading, some over periods of 30+ years. I would never have made a penny trading if I hadn’t joined a firm and got taken under the wing of experienced guys.

    Some of the firms were run by people that weren’t great traders themselves. So what? They hired guys around them that were good traders and partnered with them.
  98. An exchange registered futures proprietary trading firm is a completely different thing entirely as compared to the more commonly known equity prop business model.

    One big difference is that at a registered prop futures firm you as a trader are a W-2 employee - by CME and ICE regulation proprietary futures traders employed by these firms are not allowed to use the employee's capital. In other words, the trader is putting the firm's capital at risk and not his own.
  99. Why would someone that knows how to trade submit himself to a position where he has a boss or partner? That makes no sense.:)
    But that's just my opinion. I know you won't agree with me and that's OK. Wish you all the best.;)
  100. Only three legitimate reasons:

    1. To trade stupidly large size. Which they encourage. I've seen prodigies that in a year's time went from trading 5 lots to trading thousand lots. Literally. And in a few years time they took everything. And since you're splitting the profits with the firm and you're paying normal untreated tax rates on regular income (no blended capital gains) you really should be trading stupidly large size.

    2. To trade products and spaces that you as an independent almost certainly couldn't. I can tell you from personal experience that when I traded exchange cleared power and natural gas swaps (Clearport and LCH) at one of the firms I mentioned previously I had $12.5M of daily margin to play with.

    3. If you're a quantitative trader and go to Jump for example you're going to get an ECN infrastructure that is freaking otherworldly. And there is also programming and hardware/software support aplenty.

  101. For a quite a variety of reasons, actually, but I guess they mostly boil down to the main two mentioned, just above.

    (Mine - in case you were thinking of asking - was that I was able to earn considerably more that way, by trading in far bigger size, while doing almost exactly the same things, and losing almost none of the benefits of self-employment. Others I know in similar positions have other, only slightly different reasons.)

    Indeed ... and actually one with which many employed traders disagree. o_O

    (But in the context of this thread, it's all kind of academic: many prop-shops are very scammy outfits, and they're the only ones who are going to look at someone in his 4th year and not profitable as a trader. No disparagement intended, but it is what it is.)
  102. I was using close to a million dollars in margin with less than 100k to my name. I had autospreaders with dedicated servers way before exchanges hosted them. I had dinners with the heads of exchanges and access to some of the most competitive rates. I got to train people without using my capital and got a cut of their profits.

    There’s 4 or 5 reasons why successful traders want to be part of a prop group
  103. Again, an electronic proprietary futures trading firm registered with CME and ICE is a completely different animal than the equity prop firms so commonly advertised and talked about here on ET and elsewhere.

    Apples and oranges.

    By regulation the prop futures group cannot use the trader's (employee) capital. It must be the firm's capital at risk. In fact, the CME stipulates to these firms that the trader be paid as an employee on IRS Form W-2. I mean, many of them offer employee health insurance. Vacation time is up to you for the most part. I've seen guys take off for several weeks at a time.
  104. size kills....

    and do not need to

    can be achieved without prop firm

    come on, many, if not most, employed traders are just executioners, they will not survive a day in our environment

    100k is just peanuts :) , and if we are talking about futures nothing

    special in the the size of marging that u got for them

    so what.. most do need them at all

    and i had dinner with my wife and do not give a damn about rates :)

    did u take a share in their loss too?

    i see that you try to differentiate yourself from the others who require trader to put up his own money...but it does not really matter for those who know what they doing (they will make money regardless) and for those who do not (they will loose regardless)

    as for the fact that your traders employed with w2, again does not tells anything about trader's ability - whole wall street employs traders who can not trade - just a fact of life...

    vacations ...lol .. it appears that we are living on different planets
  105. I think you are missing the points to the answers to the questions related to the posters you have quoted.

    If I was offered a salary to trade for a prop firm, why would I not take it? I am making money by trading, and win or lose I am still making money. Sure, if I kept losing for the firm, I would not be employed there for long. But I reckon' it takes a bit of the stress out of trading. I figure trading for a prop-firm for a salary is an in-between of trading your own money and trading in sim. You are stressed, but not as stressed?

    Anyway, you appear to be argumentative for argument's sake.

  106. Yes, I accept that ... just as I'm sure you accept that there are others, too, who aren't.

    Size matters.

    (Oops, did I say that out loud? :sneaky: ).
  107. I think you're missing his point(a point with which I personally agree).
    He made it clear that the key thing is the definition of a trader, which in his book is "someone who trades for a living and uses his own money and no one else's".
    To me, using OPM in order to minimize "stress" of depending solely in one's own money is admitting that one doesn't know what he is doing. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that this is not trading. To me that is just a con. But the one's to blame are the people who give money to others without considering the fact that if these "traders" really knew what they are doing, they would not need OPM. These "traders" are forcing nobody to give them money. So I have nothing against them. That's just logic.
  108. Back to OP, yes I agree OP, who is not profitable after 4 years should benefit from joining a firm and learn from some of the professional traders.

    However, heaven forbid, I actually agree with qxr1011 if you are really good and trade your own fund for a living. You don't need the headache of working for others. Of course if you want to be super rich, are a PM and collect a 2% fee on AUM it is a different story.
  109. I always wondered why you turned professional instead of stayed retail.
  110. Yes you did. I see you blushing. :)
  111. I kinda doubt that OP would be able to get a prop futures trading gig - they don't mentor anymore. But they are always looking for programmers so that is why I suggested in a previous post that he consider learning the skills they were posting for (Python, MatLab, whatever) and maybe try to get his or her foot in the door that way. Just a thought. If he or she has a knack for strategy then I'm sure one of the groups or individuals at the firm would consider taking him on at some point down the road.

    Another point - joining an exchange registered futures prop firm is not a sentence of servitude. Careers are fluid. Hardly anyone stays at the same employer for long periods of time these days. Plenty of former prop traders, including myself, go on to trade their own accounts. And when I wanted to trade exchange-cleared swaps and needed access to serious margin and a firm approved by LCH and Clearport to trade those swaps I transitioned back into that world.

    Again, it's a transition, it's a means to an end. If it's not a beneficial situation then by all means leave. But if you're really good, chances are they are going to offer you something really choice in order to entice you to stay - a partnership, a bigger profit sharing split, stuff like that. Or a headhunter from a HF will try like hell to poach you. Happens all the time. You have options. Slavery was outlawed about 154 years ago or so.
  112. I worked for over a decade in prop firms, I never once saw it as working for someone else, if anything I saw it as them working for me. If they didn't give me top notch service I threatened to leave and they tried to keep me. I demanded good IT support, low commissions, investment into infrastructure. I could work when I want or how I wanted, no dress code. It was a partnership. If I lost money I would have been asked to leave. But when making money it was their job to support me. They brought their capital and infrastructure and relationships to the table, I brought my market edges, experiences and research abilities. It was never a boss/employee relationship... unless I had a particularly bad day!
  113. I went "full time" back in 2010, never worked for anyone when trading, and always traded my own funds so I am ignorant.

    How are profits and losses shared, just curious?

  114. It all depends how much money you have on account with them. If a trainee they will back you (well used to) for 50/50 split. But when I was doing it for every 10k in your account you get an extra 10% in your split. The highest is about 90%.

    Probably the average Trader was on about 70% split. The biggest thing ppl here haven’t discussed is if I am trading my own account and a flash crash puts me 500k in the hole despite only having 50k the lawyers are coming after me for my assets. At a prop firm the firm takes the hit. So you pay your split for lots of things. Also nearly every edge I have found came from working with other traders. Hardly found anything reading off forums or books. So it was either 20-30% of my profits to the prop firm or no profits.
  115. To work prop, do you need to be on their premises to trade?
  116. For an exchange registered futures prop firm, the answer is usually yes as far as my own personal knowledge. I have known some prop traders (big earners) who traded remotely - but they earned that right. You have to keep in mind that all the the risk is borne by the firm and risk controls are important.
  117. Thank you. I probably should look into this a few years back but trading my own money forced me to "grow up" fast.:banghead:

  118. What is funny about this is that every time I read a book or try to use an author's idea I start to lose more than I am used to lose in futures day-trading. That makes me thing that trading is a strange activity where less you study, a better professional you are.
    That also makes me think that you would do better if you give me half of the money you intend to give to a mentor, cause in both ways you keep not being profitable, but giving me half of the money you will at least keep the other half.


  119. That can be the impression. But perhaps that's more often so among people who "aren't reading the right books" (a circular argument, in a sense, since I'm arguably defining "right" as being "not the ones to which that applies", though more generally, books purporting to present "systems that can profitably be copied" are much less likely to turn out to be "the right ones" than those teaching general principles about market behaviour learned from their authors' experiences, etc., and of course there are reasons for that).

    In my mis-spent youth, I bought backtesting software and a decade's price data, and backtested, as far as I was able to - among a lot of other things - almost every system covered in a well-known book by Kathy Lien & Boris Schlossberg (none was profitable, and one in particular was so dreadful that I even seriously wondered whether 'fading' every entry might be worthwhile), almost every system covered in an equally well-known book by Linda Bradford Raschke & Larry Connors (these were collectively not quite so bad, and one system appeared to be just about profitable without any terrifying drawdowns, and it was worthwhile and beneficial for me to study it in detail to see why it was just about profitable and what the underlying principle was behind the indicator combination that apparently made it so), and almost every system listed among the Babypips "Best Forex Trading Systems Hall of Fame Past Winners" (none was profitable, and some were frankly laughable even to someone with as little experience as I then had) ... it seemed to me, then, in a sense, that trading is a strange activity in which studying wasn't very helpful, but (fortunately for me) not long after that I learned what "studying" really means and came to understand why I'd been more or less wasting my time with all that nonsense.

    Now you're talking ... :sneaky:

  120. Nice!

    Actually, I found the same - the more I tried to analyse and revise out my losing trades, the less money I made. I am now determined to use my brain as little as possible.
    (you know what I mean....)
  121. It probably doesn’t help the OP and I’m not sure what I’m advising exactly. But several of the biggest traders I’ve worked with were if anything a bit stupid. They couldn’t even tell you what a bond was. They didn’t have a clue what was going on in the news or the potential risk they were taking on.

    But a couple of them made hundreds of thousands a year for 10-15 years and still probably are for all I know. To them it was no different to a PlayStation game. But their ‘points’ were money.

    Countless times I wouldn’t take a trade because I knew a news release was coming out or we were at year lows and some big stops could be set off. They didn’t even know that. I would pass on the trade. They would make a quick 5 grand and go home
  122. Curious, the trading books became more useful for me just when I started to search for flaws in the systems or in the way the content is presented.
    A thing that particularly makes me laugh is when some pundit talks about his infallible system and you read just to find that the infallible system is some variation of a well-know trend follower
    Recently, I was watching a webinar from the guy that suposedly introduced the Ichimoku Clouds in Brazil (I'm from Brazil) and he was tallking about all the japanese wisdom and the mistic behind the Ichimoku and then he shows a setup (in a chart from one day that a stock went up from the open to the close, without large pullbacks).
    Naturally, the setup worked very fine in that chart, but if someone have payed a bit attention woud have noted that the mistical setup was in fact a moving average crossover and any trend follower system would haver worked as well.
    The same works for systems that uses the "mean reversion strategy".
    The problem with me the time I read many books and watched many webinars is that I renewed my hopes that with that new knowledge I would be able to predict the market future. And hopes is a thing that the market is used to punish.

  123. As other members mention here. The best things right now it to stop everything for a while. I know it is hard but the more we try at this point the more we dig our hole. This is a kind of addiction that is closely related to gambling addiction. I know it doesn't sound sexy at the moment but most trader present those sign.

    Life is wonderful, don't let greed suck your life. Try for 7 days to do one special actions for someone else like buy a special gift to someone you know, help someone in the street, give food to someone who is starving, any actions that is not related to yourself interest. It will help to recover quickly and learning the right way what you need to learn.

    Best of luck my friend.
  124. I wonder if it typically takes so long to become profitable is that we are hoping for a short cut and look to the "mentor" sites, which I have done as well, in stead of believing in oneself from start to finish. I have finally given up on that type of mentoring scam after a couple years and am doing a reset where I build on what I know, see, and can test / prove. I am encouraged by how things are going besides knowing these scamsters are not going to get any more of my money.. I wish there was a way to get the word out about how the only money being made is by the slimy "mentors" to people who are starting out.
  125. Why so many low post count posters on this thread??
  126. I didn't post a lot, because I was waiting for an opportunity to sell my new revolutionary trading system or to offer my coaching services. And you must realize this thread is an excellent oportunity for me to doing that.
  127. Historically I can usually only take so much of this site before going away. It seems like sarcasm and / or trolling is strong with this one. It just happens to be one of those times I came back and seen a thread that I had something to say. As soon as the sarcasm level approaches critical mass (if the site and or its frequent posters hasn't changed) I will go away for a few years before checking back. If there is good content and the replies are worth something I will stick around.
  128. So when you come back each time you create a new nickname?

  129. This is such a perceptive post, beyond essential to read and digest.

    All the fuss and argument over whether MA cross-over strategies work or whether double tops and head-and-shoulders and pin bars work and whether the Turtle system works any more - its all BS. It serves no purpose except to inflate the misplaced emphasis on entry patterns and to bolster the impression that there is an infinite number of systems and if only we could find the right one then that would stop us losing.

    In fact almost any system that truly follows trends and almost any system that truly acknowledges reversals will work. What stops then being profitable is either inconsistent application by the trader or the laborious complications that vendors insert to make clients think they are getting something of real and unique value.
  130. "A esperança é a última que morre!" Without it, we do nothing... I think the key thing is IN WHAT this hope is based.
  131. Kind of agree with this but very hard to do for them as losing traders often try too hard by participating at the expense of being grounded and becoming less self absorbed.
    There is a spiritual element to trading, probably would make for an ideal life school for troubled teenagers and dysfunctional adults.
  132. Something that rather stuck in my mind of all the bull and bluster I have read over the years is how Rockefellar gave 10% of his earnings to his local church to use for the local poor etc. I expect he was popular guy when he returned.
  133. That's what Tom Baldwin did in the treasury bond futures just before the figure came out. He would take the largest orders.
  134. Www.towertradinggroup.com Dublin office are looking for remote futures traders.
  135. Added to this, if you find 2 products that are correlated by 0.85 or more- you can spread trade those two products when they are on extremes of their correlation. So essentially when the correlation is out of whack by -2.5 standard deviations- buy one and sell the other.

    I think if you have something that back tests on a product well over 3 years- then trade that strategy manually on that one product.
    You will never find a stray that works across more than 3 products all the time.
    I think you have probably found some good stuff but probably didn’t know when you had found it and what you should have done with it when you found it.
    Pm me and we can have a chat over Skype.
  136. I love it when people bring out the 90% of traders fail stat. For 2 reasons.
    1. Because it’s true and is more like 95%.
    2. Because the 5% that make it are in the 5% because they goose to be. The 95% of failures chose to give up.

    So when you say to yourself- fuck it- I tried but I’m not able to do it- you are the only person saying you can’t do it.
    If you are listening to others- then you are badly supported in Your life goals.
    If you have personal friends and family that believe in you and who are willing to support your goals- then you are already becoming part of the 5%. If you blow up 2 accounts and learn from your mistakes- you should start a third.

    Quitters (the95%) all have one thing in commom- the decide to quit. The decide to not try different paths, the decide not to find a mentor, not to apply to a prop firm trainee program. They decide not to get up and trade the early morning opens.

  137. Totally agree- a good mentor will not want any money.
    Don’t fall for the slate of retail trading courses. That said- there are some GREAT programs out there.
    The Amplify Trading 3 month/9 week program is exceptional for technical and fundamental analysis, trading psychology and entry and exit strategies.

  138. I think you are already now moving into the out of the 90% and into the 10%.
    Keep the faith.

  139. Thanks.

    You have made exceptionally practical posts and placing you on my Follow list!
  140. Funny you should mention Amplify. On another forum they were slagged off by an ex student until suddenly the guy apologised for his observations. Probably hit with a threatened lawsuit ?
  141. hmm, I would be interested to get a link to that thread you mention. Depending on what was said, I cannot see where there would be any legal recourse for Amplify to leverage a former student to retract a comment unless there was gross defamation or slander in the comments.
    I think its a bit sensationalist to say that he was probably hit with a lawsuit.

    I dont want to get dragged into justifying why their education is good above others- to me its just a fact. They do not sell students on any dreams or ideas of getting rich quick. Perhaps check out their youtube videos to get a flavour and you might think differently. They do train institutional bank level traders and HF level traders also- client list includes Goldman, FT, McKinsey, Bank of China, the list is extensive and top tier. Maybe you are not aware, but those level traders are doing minimum 2000 to 50k contracts in the Bonds, Commodities, FX and Equities. Hard to challenge that level of endorsement. I always find it crazy that banks have 25year olds trading $20mil in futures contracts a day.


    Or perhaps you are only delighted to follow the training programs littered with pictures of supercars, fists full of cash and loads of amazing trading setups. LOL
  142. This is starting to feel like a forex thread, anyone catching my drift?

  143. lot of good points in here.
  144. Will is a great guy. He taught me personally about position sizing for entries and exits. He was also the first guy to open highlight the hopelessness of trading 1 and 2 lots.
    Evident in this video. I like the way he highlights his psychology towards the last contract on in this trade. "How do I feel about this last contract? I dont care really"... or something to that effect. And hes completely right.
    I still see traders who take 1 and 2 lot trades and they don't have an option of taking early profits. These guys and girls still don't understand that you can take profits early or half way on the trade expectancy, then bring stop to scratch and be comfortable that they will be profitable no matter what happens next.
  145. The market doesn't care or know your mentality - but that is irrelevant.
    This is a straw man argument.

    The poster never said that humility will help because the market knows you are humble.

    Humility helps YOU:
    execute a trading plan
    cut loses exiting a bad trade
    not increase your size after a streak of wins
    take a break from trading when you are out of sync and suffering a string of losses
    be open to new ideas (ie not thinking you know it all)

    Gann's books are worth the time to read and one who does will see the failings are those of human character.

    "The market does not beat a man. he beats himself."
  146. i think you may have taken me up incorrectly. By talking about trader psychology, we are not making any attempt to control of apply our mentality on the market, but instead, control how we react to the market, movements, drawdowns, wins etc.
  147. advice: eliminate time from the data then this, above all else find exactly when to place a trade. lay in the tall grass and wait for big game, be patient. perry kaufman smarter trading is highly recommended.
  148. First I make it clear I will not mentor anyone.

    This day I prefer not to come to Elitetrader to waste my time to deal with some idiots, but rather make $$$ from the market, or spend time with my family or playing with my new toy (car price drop by at least 50% in the first 3 years so I better enjoy it before the the $60K/year depreciation kick in).

    My only advice, all the trading systems (retail or even professional) are down to two scenario - Trend or mean reversion. You can have the 3rd scenario with options (side way, our Bobby favorite, good luck for him in long term). The unfortunately situation is you can't find any system that will work in all the 3 market scenario (you can get it work for 2 out of 3 using Options but with terrible risk/rewards). All the system will work well in one market condition and fail in in another, in long term you will loss due to slippage & commission. Arb is not part of discussion here.

    The key (I repeat again) is to find a way to know what is the current market situation (trend or mean reversion), and how (this is important) to know the time when the transition happen (trend become mean reversion or vice versa). Hints, you can't do this purely from technical, experience and common sense did matter.

    All the best.

  149. May that day come soon for you. And us.
    1. I have an awesome paper trading system.
    2. You said you would die for it! However, my question is whether or not you would be willing to KILL for it? That's the bar. Ask yourself, would you KILL for it?
    3. If you are willing to kill for my system the risk, to me, would be too great.
    Go long. It's a bull market! (Hat tip to @speedo)
  150. LOL.
  151. While it's true that the choices can be boiled down to trend and mean reversion, there needn't be a transition from one to the other; they can occur simultaneously given that a trend itself has a mean. And if one draws his trendline using Wyckoff's guidance (swing points), all this can be determined technically. For example, the NQ is currently heading toward the upper limit of its trend channel, having bounced off the lower limit the last week of October. The mean is 6300. The upper limit, as of now, is around 6480 (it will rise as the days go by since the channel is diagonal). One can argue about the placement of a trend line, but the point is that these things are watched, and reversals can be expected if and when price reaches these limits. Experience and common sense? Yes. Price doesn't always turn on a dime. But it pays to be aware of these aspects of mean reversion.
  152. By FT do you mean Financial Times? What do they trade?

    McKinsey the management consultants, are they trading wheat futures these days?

    Goldman does not engage in prop trading but according to you they are trading $20m of futures a day.

    What you selling, Timdung?

  153. Interesting point of view, by saying this are you saying that 95% of the losing trader are troubled teenagers or dysfunctional adults ?
  154. I believe those terms are all interchangeable.
  155. Sorry, but I have to warn you: this is insane. There is so much more in life.
  156. Im not selling anything. Good luck.
  157. Yep
  158. There are way more than two types of strategies, from non-directional options strategies to pairs etc.

    I've trade both trend and reversals. Both have lumpy returns at times.

    Stop daytrading? I don't know what it is but it's not good advice. Why would daytrading have "astronomical probability of wipe-out"? That's illogical. The intraday moves are incorporated into longer term charts, so based on that, swing trading also has "astronomical probability of wipe-out" and by extension every time horizon.
  159. Their coaches are either retired (too old to compete) or mediocre players but good coaches. When it comes to trading, you want someone who is still active (who cares about learning how trading was in say 1980s?) but also outperforming everyone else. A sports equivalency of having Michael Jordan coach you while he's competing in the NBA finals.
  160. One reason is constrained liquidity as you only get a percentage of the profits. Why would it be less stressful? If you need to make money every month to pay the bills then that's just bad planning. As a trader you need to have 6 months expenses always available and probably more for any health emergencies.

    Then if you're systematic or automated, they can just copy what you're doing. They might even get you to give up your code, talk about making yourself redundant.

    Anyway, I did have an offer to join a prop firm from someone here on ET but it didn't seem attractive for the aforementioned reasons. Maybe I just have too much disdain for the word "salary".

  161. Maybe its illogical but the statistics are with my argument. Most new traders are day-traders and most get wiped out.

  162. For poor traders (and that's most, of course - nobody's disputing it) you're right; for real traders, d08's right ... (is my perspective).
  163. I am only laughing because it's one of the more ridiculous claims made on this forum (having worked at one of the firms mentioned and having been working in finance for many years). What probably happens is that outfit had some people that took their course and later happen to find a job with a fund/bank. Alternatively, they might do corporate training courses for operations/sales staff or provide FSA test prep courses. This gives them an opportunity to say with all honesty "we train staff for VS" and such.

    It's not "coaching", it's "apprenticeship". It's very different from coaching - you learn by doing things and looking over someones shoulder.
  164. Not so!
    There are plenty of old timers around with years of experience but these days lack the quick reflexes and energy of up coming younger guys and gals.
    You don't want a Michael Jordan training you, he us too busy with his own game plan to be able to put quality time into training others, while an old timer has both the time and the nous to do that. But finding such people is like finding gold in a river bed, not easy.
  165. From what I read he was not a good coach either while competing or retired. Phil Jackson was the good coach during Jordan's time.

    Turned out his teammate Steve Kerr, not as talented, is a better coach.

    I think a good trader may not be a good coach and vice versa.
  166. Actually, I've found that experience makes up for the need of quick reflexes. What old traders lose first is the power of concentration. After xxx minutes of following the price movement your mind begins to drift.
  167. If one knows his stuff, and if the student has the ability to learn, it's not that hard to teach the basics. That fork in the road is the application. I've found that while not wanting to clone myself, too often leaving the student to go his own way, leads to disaster. So initially you have to clone yourself to a certain extent and let the student develop himself later after years of experience.

  168. Absolutely correct. My analoges were only meant to highlight that most big winners in life seek out mentors.

    In trading you want a coach who has meanigful positive expectation right now.

    Trading edges often evaporate over time and many who used to win are now solid losers or have quit trading.

    Trading is full of gurus-for-hire who had an edge years ago but are now losers who no longer have an edge.

    Trading is even more full of complete lying hustlers posing as winning traders who never once in their lives figured to beat the game.
  169. Yes and lying husksters would never have been succesful in the first place.
    For some reason it seems, the best traders long term have self integrity.
    Self deception carries over into trading self deception which carries over into trading losses.
  170. Other than reading books, lots of books, I obtained most of my options trading skills from you folks here and I have no way of knowing if you all are good traders. Perhaps most of you are.
  171. The second sentence made me smile;

    Take that "most" sample, and divide that by 99.5%...that very tiny group are the profitable/successful traders.

    I'm not being arrogant or anything...but that's just reality of any select grouping. Creme of the Crop...Select the Best, forget the rest.

    From my experience, or observations, the best traders in the world are not the most highly educated or have the most experience.
    Education and experience are important, don't get me wrong -- but only to a certain point or extent.
    Too much education makes you stale and stuffy and close-minded, and too much experience makes you stale as well and dry and tired.

  172. Well, there's not really any argument here. Why would I recommend a profitable day-trader give up day-trading? - I wouldn't and I didn't. But d08 likes to set up adversarial conversations, even when I wasn't talking to him (and don't like to generally).
  173. I used to close out all my open trades at the end of the day. Mainly not to worry about over night glitches.
    Now I am experimenting with position building from day to day and only closing on the stop loss or take profit.
  174. they train in-house staff and have alumni that go on to work in finance as analysts, traders and portfolio managers etc.
    I don’t really give a shit, I was merely just saying they provide good base education for trading intraday.
    I’m not really interested in what people think it may or may not be.
  175. That was the point I was actually making for basketball, see the same paragraph. In sports you can understand the game well but are lacking the athletic ability, I see no such problems when clicking the mouse is involved. You can be 80 years old and still actively trading.
    Maybe it's true for trading as well, having a trading coach that barely makes the average wage is better as a coach. I personally find it hard to believe but I haven't had any coaching either.

    Won't cloning yourself limit their creativity? The same applies to schooling, by enforcing the same rules upon everyone, you limit the creativity of some at the benefit of the majority. Methods and discipline are important but not absolutely everything.

    If quick reflexes are needed, why not just hire someone to automate the approach or someone to just trade your method if automation is out of the question?
    Some might even say "if they are that good and been doing it for so long, why aren't they retired yet?". The only explanation is that they are old, wealthy, still trading actively AND are eager to teach just for the sake of teaching (money doesn't matter). Seems like the criteria is too strict to find anyone.
  176. It's called having a discussion. Anyone can join in if they feel they have something to contribute.

    What statistics suggest most new traders are daytraders? I'm sincerely curious.
    Most new traders get wiped out, period. Daytrading or not.
    With daytrading, your equity gain or decline can accelerate as you're dealing with more data and therefore more opportunities. Then again, you can trade options over a longer period and lose everything within days or put on oversized futures positions. On the flipside you can daytrade conservatively - low volatility ETFs, very large cap stocks etc, not that risky in any sense.

    I suppose you're suggesting everyone who are relatively new to trading don't know what they are doing and therefore their accounts will be depleted too fast, before they can learn anything. Fair point if that's what you meant.
  177. Yes, I think it would if you were to do so 100%. That's why I said 'to a certain extent'. That 'certain extent' is needed to keep them from going too far out on the limb, which without sufficient experience will result in problems. I've found too often that those who are smart enough to learn the basics, tend to just jump into the application phase. As you know, it should take considerable time to find what's best for them in that respect.
  178. I've heard that said a million times. Now maybe that's true for scalpers being overrun by HFT.
    Other than that though I would say that an edge that stops working was actually not based on true price movement, and so it could not be expected to last in the first place.
  179. For example, I retired from the working world at 38. I started trading way before that though, and I'll continue to do so until that morning when I go face first into my pancakes! There's no way that I'll ever stop no matter how much I've made. Listen youngsters, after a certain age money means less and less. If you continue to trade, it's the thrill of winning, especially against the young ones with their AI, algos etc., that keeps you going. Additionally, I know that trading will keep me off the park bench trying to remember where I live! And if you are lucky enough to find someone who is really interested in learning to trade, it's quite fulfilling to help them and see them progress.
  180. You presented it as if that bit of “education” was crucial to their professional success. I have no idea if they’re good or not, but I am certain that taking a course with them is not going to materially influence your chances of getting a real job in finance (especially a job with a pnl responsibility).
  181. Sle, I have to give it to you. You have now twice taken what I typed and put your new meaning on it.
    I never said that the education secures you or might increase your chance of getting a job in finance. I only shared the clients they have as way of endorsement of the quality and industry acknowledgement.
    What I type and what you think I am inferring are two different things.
    I only mean what I type, someones spin off of what I type. Sorry there were crossed wires on this.

    I think the placement of past trainees who want to go on is pretty high. Most people on my course were very serious on getting jobs in finance or had worked in finance and wanted to go on to bigger institutions.
    The flakes will always flake though.
  182. "On MY course"?
  183. Yep. I took a course with them.....

  184. No, its not.
  185. Jesus- even when presented with good education routes to get started on the right path, people here still shit all over it, question the hell out of it and seem to be more than happy to NOT suggest anything better. Getting very tired of the noise.
  186. it's interesting how you guys get riled up 'discussing' on the topic of mentorship. anyone else noticed that the op only posted twice in this now 19pg long thread :rolleyes:
  187. Never let trivial facts like that get in the way of a good argument!

    And if someone's grammar can be criticised, so much the better!
  188. are you guys that bored? or is the market ranging on low volatility? I'm here cos stupid windows is pulling its 1~2hr update crap on me, this US open

    seems like forum post count is a great way to tell trend from range :D
  189. I will mentor you right now and for free: sorry, there are no systems or patterns that consistently work. Nobody makes money doing that. (although a lot of people would like you to believe otherwise because of business reasons). If you want to be successful, find an edge: but based it on something real. Something you can do very well to add value to the markets. Once you find it, go and trade based on that. But just stop looking for systems or patterns. Some of the things you can do are: be willing to take risks from the markets (ie, sell short side), do great fundamental analysis (ie, find the next company), etc. No patterns, systems, setups and definitively, it is not easy. If it was, you would not be able to make much money. That is why working at McDonalds is not very profitable. Because anybody can do that. Don't foul yourself into thinking otherwise. Question anybody's motivation if they tell you otherwise. Are they making any money out of you? Nobody can make money trading a pattern, a system, just putting a software to work on its own. If it was possible, it would be arbitraged quite quickly rendering it unprofitable or with very very thin margins.

    Good luck and keep your feet on the ground!

  190. Trend-following consistently works.
  191. Your terminology is all over the place. You say "find an edge", "take risks" but not based on patterns or systems. Patterns and systems are taking risk just the same.
    So a guy sitting around in his underwear and clicking the mouse can make a living but the same guy writing software to find "patterns" can't? Interesting logic.
    Discretionary trading barriers to entry are even lower than writing trading algorithms based on patterns.
  192. Your 28 per your profile. So you started at 12. No wonder you are very successful and post on youtube.
  193. yep when the tech bubble was going on at 12 i was buying calls on tech stocks :D
  194. I love your will to learn and achieve success, I am quite a profitable trader, I don't know if I can be of any help, maybe you should pm me.
  195. Spectre has provided a nice "Gift" here and it is worth studying. So this should be of interest to those that are sincerely looking to become consistently successful traders. Thanks Spectre2007
  196. Thanks to timdug for his contribution here. Note that you might recognize that TimDug is an experienced trader who has worked for several well known Prop Firms in both Ireland and London.
  197. %%
    I agree with about 80-88- 95% of that. But my comments are limited to stocks+ real estate.....PT Jones noted Bitcoin + fine art.I like redneck or green art myself, 3 polar bears on red Coca-Cola can+ green yahoo Mountain Dew art. NOT a stock tip. I dont know why they bring out red polar bears about SEPT/OCT-Not a prediction, . LOL I like thier blue bottled water or spring water. :caution::cool:
  198. Are you drunk?
    What are you talking about?
  199. I just watched this BBC Vegas documentary on Youtube:
    "High rollers gambling on the Las Vegas Strip!!!"

    You should watch its lessons...on What Not to do in trading;
    Don't be a robot deadhead gambler continuing to throw money down the drain.
  200. %%
    Keep looking you may see it. Yahoo Mountain Dew green can;
    + Red Coke can with 3 polar bears on it, SEPT OCT pattern. Hint i prefer candlecharts but some times study mountain charts.....:caution::cool::thumbsdown::thumbsup:
  201. %%
    Really, I'm NEW #9,do anything within reason??20 hours a day is way to much; rule of 72, 6 days a week X 12 hours = 72. Good thing i kept records on leveraged trends compared to longer cash markets that pays dividends + trends that don't pay dividends, that way i stopped leveraging my ignorance while i learned; most investors make money.....You could study jack Schwager Top Trader books , but maybe you dont want to-Jim Rogers is an investor. Wisdom is profitable to direct:cool:
  202. Mr Turtle speaks in turtle language and parables. Once you learn, you will benefit greatly.:D
  203. OP has long ago abandoned this thread so why are we still posting?
  204. %%
    Well if he took some hints; maybe he is making money, some in markets have to do that:caution:
  205. In that case congratulations, you have done your job!:thumbsup:
  206. Yes, congrats to you as well as Baron for doing "the right thing."
  207. I’m sorry but there are more important and interesting things to learn than that shit
  208. Remember the Turtles?

    OK, to each his own.

    Take care.