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List of Montreal Props?

  1. Hey all, first post here.

    I'd be interested in knowing what firms there are around here. I've read pretty much every other thread in this section on Montreal, but I don't think I've seen a comprehensive list.

    Anyway, from what I've gathered, the "big firms" around here are:

    - Title Trading

    - Globus Trading

    - Golden Market Management

    - World Trade Securities

    - Swift Trade

    ... And it's also all I know about, lol.

    Btw, any extra info on these guys is appreciated such as fee/management structure, etc. If they provide top-notch training and require no deposit, that's a bonus!

    But just having a comprehensive list would be cool. I can work from there.

    Thanks!
     
  2. The problem with many prop firms or prop office. They cannot recruit profitable traders as profitable trader would not need to work for a prop firm.

    With prop firms that don't require any deposit you have restrictions on type of trading and stops and leverage.

    Anyone with $75,000 can open a prop office. but good luck finding profitable traders that will 'daytrade' and pay the firm 30% of their profit. why pay the firm a percentage of your profit for the privillege of intra-day leverage.

    The only people that would work for a prop is they cannot afford the $5,000 or $10,000 to open a futures account or don't have the minimum $30,000 to open a daytrading account on retail brokerage.

    So you have catch twenty 22, hence if a trader was profitable and have their own trading system they wouldn't need two work for a small shop prop that has $100 stops or maximum loss of $100/day.

    All you are getting is leverage from a prop firm and the buying power is very small for these 'small prop firms' like less than $10,000 intraday buying power for beginners and you are required to pay tight stops plus have to go through they're training and act like an 'employee'. when your are in fact a partner. traders are partners not employees as profit and pay check is not dependent on the traders own work.

    The prop desk you want to work for is in the bank or some investment bank where you are managing 2 million in capital or 10 million in capital. that is a real 'prop' desk. not these small shops. And there are market maker shops who strictly do automated high frequency trading and most market making.



     
  3. The reality is that these prop firms just provide rebates or volume and commissions to the broker/dealer selling these prop firm operations. That is the main reason broker/dealers give out prop firms. There is no difference between prop account or retail account other than the higher leverage in the exchange with today's high speed internet and access to trading software by home gamers that used to be the domain of professional market makers. And you have HFT machines that strictly use automated trading system on the brokers seat in the exhange..so the market has changed since 2000 and I think wil continue to change. volume has dries up in daytrading. as many firms and hedge funds have close shop. and banks not allow to participate in the securities markets from volker rule. fewer participation. only 1 market maker in many securities. that is why traders been complaining about lack of intra-day volume.
     
  4. Nice, thanks for the info.

    Yeah, I'd be profitable right now since I've got my method, but I'm still very inconsistent and I lack screen time experience. :(

    It's one reason I thought looking into working in a prop would work out. I may pay to be there, but I would get experience and maybe a little extra on top. Plus, my capital right now is nothing extraordinary, still being a Uni student and all that.

    But if you have any leads on getting in on one of those $10m dealing desks here in MTL, I'm all ears. :p
     
  5. There is also Arbgroup and jitney missing from that list... And Pegasus on the south shore. I am just listing, not endorsing btw...
     
  6.  
  7. Maverick74 is professional and is an employee of a prop trading industry.. the fact most firms don't even need human traders or anyone manually trading. Most firms and for daytrading utilize HFT machines that trade with computers. there is no need for firms to need human traders with automation. that is in the late 90's when trading firm hired daytraders. as for overnight,

    prop traders just making money for the broker/dealer in commissions,desk fee and software fees to have the privillege of trading there. and getting their privillege..a profitable trader don't need a prop firm. just for the leverage..he should be able to get himself it's the unprofitable traders who need prop trading.

     
  8. Good job Mr. Maverick. And, don't forget to mention that many if not most retail firms trade against their own customers, match trades and all that. This can cause for little or no market impact with higher volume traders. If you buy the offer, you would like to see the offer go away.

    All the best everyone...Happy St. Patty's Day.

    Don
     
  9. Read your e-mails Don. :)
     
  10. tradingmanuals,

    I have often wondered why prop firms do not automate and dump the model of making money off of 5K, 10K or 25K traders, if they in fact can trade themselves. Why do they need manual execution?

    Perhaps the dynamic-duo can answer this?

    ES

     
  11. Nice discussion, though with polar opposites in terms of opinion it seems.

    I've no idea who's right and who's wrong, so I'll just find out for myself.

    That said, anything more about firms in Montreal in particular?
     
  12. Hey,

    I'm located in downtown Mtl and I just saw your post. Anyone in this forum have a contact with a props in Mtl? I'm interested in doing a financial engineering master but not sure of my decision. Maybe viewing how the trading business is done in a firm could help me take a decision.

    Thanks
     
  13. bright uses Goldman Sachs as their clearing firm and they make lots of money from commissions that these 'prop trader' bring in. it's niche business for goldman sachs and other broker/dealers as daytraders or prop traders bring a lot commissions or profits that are risk free.

    And with bright they used to require deposit of $25,000. the props that don't require any deposit are more selective who they hire or recruit.

    maverick and don are in selling prop as that is their 'niche business' as there are traders that want 10:1 leverage or more. retail only gives you 4:1

    For the exchange, they don't if you are a prop trader or retail trader. it makes no difference.

    maverick and don live in this site and are sponsors so they have commercial or profit interest in promoting prop trading.

    it's my opinion from prop firm managers I've met. the prop operator makes money on software fee markup and commission markup. and get percentage of profits.

    maverick thinks I'm making things up. I have no financial reason to lie.


     
  14. infinium used to have an operation in toronto. but they jobs are very competitive. with these prop jobs,,,the trader is an 'employee; and strictly trading firm capital..base salary plus bonus.

     
  15. I didn't say you were making things up. You just don't have the facts. And btw, I'm not a sponsor on this site nor do I run a prop firm. I have nothing to "sell" as you put it. What I do have is over a decade of experience in this industry. I've traded prop in New York and Chicago. I'm a former floor member of the CBOT and worked with one of the largest market making firms in Chicago.

    One of the pet peeves I have is bullshit. I have an allergic reaction to it when I read it on this site and the only cure for it is to respond to the bullshit with facts. So when you posted, I had one of those allergic reactions. Now that I have put the facts back on this thread, the symptoms have gone away. I feel better now. Thanks.
     
  16. Name the firms in Chicago that hirin prop traders that don't require any deposit?

    Would I deposit money to some unknown person or business in Chicago with no SIPC insurance? Many of these are just trading firms made up of individuals who have a partnership or LLC account at broker dealer.

    The prop you are referring to is bright trading or the dozens who want deposit which is same as retail brokerage.

    I don't even want argue about with you why you would be offended by my comments or opinions about prop trading industry. it's not even an industry cause it's so small. You say I'm shooting blanks..why don't give some facts of the industry and names of the prop firms you are referring?

    The fact real prop trading desk where a trader doesn't require any capital deposit has lots of applicants and these days you need some computer progamming. because a lot of daytrading has become automated with HFT programs or automated systems.


     
  17.  
  18. you are an industry professional than you should know. the industry has changed. retail traders at speedtrader has same software or daytrading leverage and low commissions as broker/dealer prop traders. the industry changed after 2000 if yoiu haven't noticed..it's all computers. and floor trading is obsolete..


     
  19. DRW
    Chopper
    Transmarket Group
    Geneva
    Spot Trading
    Peak 6
    Hanley Group
    Breakwater
    Button Wood
    Blue Fin
    Gelber
    HTG
    Allston
    Archelon
    Belvedere Trading
    CTC
    DV Trading
    Eldorado Trading
    GGT Trading
    Group One
    Cutler
    Hard Eight
    IMC
    DE Trading
    Jane Street
    L.E.S
    Marquette Partners
    Toro
    Tower Hill
    Traditum
    WH Trading
    Wolverine

    How are them apples?
     
  20. Those are employee jobs and all want you to have "profitable" track record an have some computer programming or engineering as many of the daytrading is now all HFT. The only manual trading is handling customer orders. And if you have a trading strategy, they'll just automated with computer program.

    I'm just say that profitable traders has no need to work for any firm. These firms want your algorithm if your system is producing big profits. Some programmers don't even give the trading firm their code. Don't give the firm your code or system or they won't need you.


    Has anyone appllied to their one job postings or gotten a job offer from these firms or even reply after sending them your profitable resume?
     
  21. Once again you come up short on facts. Every one of these firms hire kids right out of school with no experience and no track record. In fact, that is the norm. These firms are not interested in "re-training" you or getting you to unlearn your bad habits.

    All these firms have "manual" traders as well as algorithmic traders. Are these firms "selective"? Well, let me ask you this. Do super models f*ck short bald fat guys? Not on average they don't.
     
  22. They have training program. all prop have training program but 80% of the job now is computer programming jobs with knowledge of C+++ this is not the 80's or even 70's anymore. In order to programm C++ you need to go to college and is very complex program.

    the days of trading in the chicago trading pits with hand signals is over. it's fully computer automation. unless you are profitable trader they are not interested.


     
  23. Maverick74 nice list, do you have one for Mtl hehehe
     
  24. Is English your 3rd language? None of the firms listed are floor trading firms. Thanks for allowing me to update my Mayan calendar. I thought we were still in the 70's. LOL.

    You finally are correct about one thing though. College helps. Not just at getting a job at a trading firm but even getting a job at Sears.

    Look buddy, it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't want to hijack this thread. I simply wanted to put some info out there. To sum up, there are plenty of prop firms. All of them are hiring. There are also plenty of firms like Bright who will take your money.

    If you think guys are making a living in a retail account trading then you probably also believe super models are sleeping with short bald fat guys. I can lead to the creek but I can't make you drink the water.
     
  25. If I'm not mistaken, someone posted a list of prop firms in Montreal awhile back. You should be able to find it under a search.
     
  26. Why do they need manual traders? Why not automate?

    ES

     
  27. Who? You are asking a broad question. These firms are all very different and trade different markets. No two firms are the same. So "who" in particular are you asking about? All these firms have different business models. You need to be more specific.
     
  28. Why

    Do

    You

    Bother?


    This guys is beyond clueless. I love how he believes profitable traders should trade retail and not go to a big firm where one can get big capital backing, access to top technology/analysts, and work with other top traders.

    Nah..he's right....the good traders should stay at home and trade 5 lots of Russell futures in a t-shirt and sweat pants.

    Gotta love ET.........
     
  29. Some guys give to their church. Some guys shave their heads and move to Tibet. I like to give back to ET. :)
     
  30. Before I continue...

    Do you believe that any manual method can be automated?

    ES

     
  31. I think without a structural edge, most automated traders lose. Automation can't make negative expectancy positive. If you are simply asking can any strategy be automated in practice, sure. The firms in Chicago are automating because they have a "structural" edge and they found that replicating that edge thousands of times a day enhances their overall profitability.
     
  32. Isn't one advantage of going props to minimize fees, especially with futures trading? Roundtrip fees are higher with a retail account. I can see advantages in technology (speed, automation, routing options) offered by prop firms that you listed. Could you list advantages for a manual trader?

    I agree with Maverick74 that $75000 is low here. It seems like tradingmanual is talking about the model used by firms like Title Trading, WTS, .. (based in Canada), while Maverick is referring to the Chicago model (which is different from Don Bright model).

    Most major banks in Canada have prop desk and the upside is not "little" like you mentioned. A friend of mine works on TD Canada Trust prop desk. (The bank doesn't advertise for prop trading position and instead wants to keep its prop trading activity under the radar.) I agree with tradingmanual that, when compared to the model of "prop shops", not "trading firms", banks are where you want to work for.

    You both have good points to make and it seems like you're looking at the issue from different viewpoints.

    In some situations this can work to a retail customer's advantage and I'm not talking about the insignificant price improvement that's actually front running.

    Maverick isn't selling anything. He believes in the Chicago model and I've seen his extensive argument of the Chicago model vs. Don's model.

    Some people a good living from a retail account. You can include me in this list. One just needs to try to find out about different options and where he/she wants to fit in.
     
  33. That is the point, once a trader is 'profitable' at speedtrader there is no reason to work for a prop firm and the intra-day leverge for futures is same whehter it's prop or retail. the leverage pretty high even for retail. Why pay the firm a percentage of your profits and with computer automation why need manual traders. That is a catch 22 for prop firms. profitable traders leave the firm and trade thier own system. most work prop firms cause they don't have the capital to open even retail brokerage account to daytrade. or other reasons.


     
  34. You continue to not understand the argument. You must be focusing on one type of firm when you make these arguments. As I told ES, all these firms are different. There are a million reasons why one would trade prop over retail. Could be tax reasons, commissions, the basis trade, technology, order flow, leverage, software, etc.

    Most futures traders trade prop to trade the basis or some related trade. You can't do that in a retail account. These guys are not flipping e-minis all day long.

    In the stock world, retail commissions are just too high. I'm sorry, even at IB they are horrendous and you don't even get the pass thru rebates.
     
  35. Well, looks like this discussion has bloomed quite nicely.

    To add my bit on HFT and all that: are they really all that bad? As far as I can tell, they've only really been affecting true scalpers, and they're in an arms race for the best tech at the best cost anyway. It's not a war that's going to end well once this edge has been milked to hell and back.

    Anyway, prop firms. Thanks for the suggestions so far. Keep e'm coming!
     
  36. Let me add a few words about prop trading for a canadian bank: yes it does exist - although, has someone mentioned, you never hear about it as banks keep this stuff very close to the vest.

    A typical deal for a trader at the bank I used to work for was 75K base salary, buying power of 10 million, 1/3 of profits and a "desk" fee of 150k to pay IT, secretary, office, bloomberg and what not.

    This is an extremely competitive environment and just to get in takes a great deal of luck on top of everything else. At the bank I used to work, they had what they called a "rotation" program that you had to do for 2 years in 4 different trading departments of the capital market division. After those 2 years only would a trader become prop trader if he as proven himself to management.

    Now here are a few observations about this:

    1) the guys and girls you are competing with just to get in the program have INSANE backgrounds! I have seen resumes of guys with 4.0 GPA from MIT, others who have been trading for big banks from around the world, computational finance geniuses and what not.

    2) It is so hard to get in that when you are in you really dont want to mess up: if you have 2 loosing quarters, you are out. I can tell you for a fact that traders are so scared that they barely ever take risk and will finish the year basically flat (0-5% return). Of course that makes no sense for the bank but anyway thats the way it is.

    3) For the prop trading desks, equities are for schmucks and if you hope to work for one of them, you better brush up on your fixed income knowledge. Smart money has and always will be in bonds, sorry if I break your bubble.

    4) The really good traders eventually get their own hedge funds inside the banks with the banks seed money and may or may not be authorized to sollicit external clients. I know a few who have reached this holy grail and trust me they are not your average joe walking into a churn and burn prop shop!
     
  37. ^ That sounds about right for a bank.

    What if you have a lot of experience? Does that change anything or do they put credentials above anything else?
     
  38. From what I have seen, doesn't mean a whole lot because they want to "mold" you the way they want. Experience is never going to hurt of course but I don't know exactly to what extend it does help.
     
  39. Experience = Managing millions of dollars with a good consistent track record and a strategy that's scalable.

    Trading your own 5-6 digits account for a few years means pretty much nothing.
     
  40. It's the same here in terms of competitiveness. Only now with Dodd Frank, banks can no longer have internal hedge funds. And on top of that, most of our banks here got rid of their prop desks entirely.

    Having said that, I lived in NY for two years and worked for what most people thought at the time was a bucket shop at 110 Wall Street. That was because the guys with the real resumes were at Goldman and JP Morgan. What those guys didn't know, was the people sitting around me were taking home 3 to 5 million a year. And those bankers sitting on a desk trading were making 150k base plus maybe 250k to 500k bonus. They also worked 80 hours a week, the guys at my firm worked about 50. The bank guys had 2 weeks vacation a year. The guys at my firm would take off the entire summer to bum around Europe. Trust me, the the bank is not the way to go.
     
  41. I have no doubts, banks are not interested in good grounded common sense or experience, they are interested in how many letters you have after your name. Then again they have clients that are expecting some "quantifiable professionalism". When I worked for a big bank, I could not believe how such smart guys could come up with so poor results at building a fund of hedge funds. I have no idea what planet they lived on but it didnt make any sense...
     
  42. The guys who take home 2-5 million are the local traders. Local traders trade their own money and have no restrictions on type of securities or risk they take and if they make 2-5 million, they typically have 2 milion of their own capital on the table at 'risk'. If you work for bank, you can't trade or take risk like 50/50 risk. You'll get fired from the bank if you lose even 10% of capital. For locals that is drawdown. Employees don't have drawdowns that is the difference between working for a bank and local traders. There aren't that many clients with more than $300,000 or cash capital in the market on the table.

    So the people you are referring to making 2-5 million is 'pipe' dream for most beginning traders. Typically, to get 2-5 million in trading capital, a person would raise the funds from clients as an investment advisor. Warrent Buffet started his career as an investment advisor. In this 'industry' the money is in trading or investing with other people's money and you do need professional credentials like license investment advisor etc.

    Seriously, if you can get a job paying $150,000 plus $200,000 bonus, t ake the job. With those jobs, the company has a trading system for the trader and your job is just to make sure the system doesn't fail or just execute the company trading system

    Professional don't spend two months bumming around in the summer. So your comments are not professional but local traders.


     
  43. Wrong yet again. The firm I was referring to was Worldco Trading. Most the guys put up zero capital. They made some guys put up 10k to 15k. It was a bullshit system in a way. If you went to an ivy league school, you didn't have to put up any money. If you didn't, they made you put up 10k to 15k. And oh yes, they let you draw down in your account. Many guys were 50k to 100k in debit at one point.

    They also made you keep 35k in a deferment account once you were profitable. But that was it, 35k.

    And for the record, most bank traders are not "traders", they are liquidity providers if you want to get technical. You know what the problem with that is? Once the bank fired them, not a one of them could trade on their own. I know, we use to get a lot of them at my firm trying to trade. Most of them blew out.
     
  44. And maverick, I noticed your in this site 24/7.

    The only reason I'm reply to your comments is you think my comments or opinions are wrong. I have no reason to lie or exaggerate anything. My comments are just that my observations of the trading industry or trading as career. Has anyone applied to any of the trading jobs you listed and did anyone get hire?

    What do you do for a living?

    Because a large bank or large hedg funds has their own system that many local traders can't trade like the bank or HFT systems or hedge funds. The banks don't even trade stocks in their prop desk because the money is too small not even worth their time to trade it.

    QUOTE]Quote from Maverick74:

    Wrong yet again. The firm I was referring to was Worldco Trading. Most the guys put up zero capital. They made some guys put up 10k to 15k. It was a bullshit system in a way. If you went to an ivy league school, you didn't have to put up any money. If you didn't, they made you put up 10k to 15k. And oh yes, they let you draw down in your account. Many guys were 50k to 100k in debit at one point.

    They also made you keep 35k in a deferment account once you were profitable. But that was it, 35k.

    And for the record, most bank traders are not "traders", they are liquidity providers if you want to get technical. You know what the problem with that is? Once the bank fired them, not a one of them could trade on their own. I know, we use to get a lot of them at my firm trying to trade. Most of them blew out.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  45. I agree with Maverick almost 100%. Just my 2 cents. Those that claim the prop firms don't take on risk by providing a trader 20:1 or more leverage is a ridiculous notion. The firm's capital is at risk. They offer a service to professional independent traders.
     
  46. Discretionary trading is not the same as trading for a company. Your job in the case of being an employee is to complete the task.

    prop-trading is for trading independent strategies.

    They are two very different type of businesses.
     
  47. It's mostly daytrading, very small amout of capital is at risk. It's when you take positions overnight that the exchange wants payment. If you end the day flat, no money is transferred. All the transactions are cleared at end of the day.

    That is the reason prop traders only daytrade, they take advantage of intra-day leverage.



     
  48. [/QUOTE]

    OK, I just figured it out. You are 19 years old and you know absolutely nothing about this business. Any guy that thinks banks have a system obviously are still in that bushy tail wide eyed phase of trading. Banks don't have a system. They are order flow providers. That's it. that's what they do. They don't have a magical system. You know how I know. because when they leave the banks and come trade prop, almost none of them make money!!!! Where is their magical system? Oh, let me guess, the majic goes away when they take their tie off and step outside the bank. Listen, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, you have provided a lot of humor on this thread. I think most the traders around here know you are a college kid with dreams of making it big somewhere some day. And that's fine. I wish you well. But you really need to learn about this business. What do I do? I've been an independent trader for 16 years.
     
  49. I'm in my late 30s. I'm not wided eyed "niave" 19 year old just out of high school.

    I took my securities exam when I was 25 years old.



    OK, I just figured it out. You are 19 years old and you know absolutely nothing about this business. Any guy that thinks banks have a system obviously are still in that bushy tail wide eyed phase of trading. Banks don't have a system. They are order flow providers. That's it. that's what they do. They don't have a magical system. You know how I know. because when they leave the banks and come trade prop, almost none of them make money!!!! Where is their magical system? Oh, let me guess, the majic goes away when they take their tie off and step outside the bank. Listen, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, you have provided a lot of humor on this thread. I think most the traders around here know you are a college kid with dreams of making it big somewhere some day. And that's fine. I wish you well. But you really need to learn about this business. What do I do? I've been an independent trader for 16 years. [/B][/QUOTE]
     
  50. False again. A lot of prop firms hold overnight positions. Just ask Don Bright. And many of these prop firms trade options and stock as well and all hold over night positions. And yes, you need capital to trade intra-day. Where the hell does that statement come from? LOL. Who are these clearing firms that are granting millions in exposure with no capital. LOL. Oh dear, this shit is good.
     
  51. [/B][/QUOTE]

    You are shitting me. And you still talk like this. Oh man. LOL.
     
  52. it's a different type of prop firm, those prop firms are local trades pooling capital to trade firm capital.

    Name one firm that allows overnight positions and is hiring now? And did anyone here from elite trader applied for the position and get hired?

    the prop trading in many banks and hedge funds operate in a different sytem from your 'local' trading system.

    And why are you laughing, this is serious discussions.


     
  53. Your the one who is acting childish and foolish.

    You are shitting me. And you still talk like this. Oh man. LOL. [/B][/QUOTE]
     
  54. Seriously, you do not have the right "lingo" down. You keep using the term "local" which in the past referred to a independent trader on the floor trading his own money, i.e. a local in the bond pit. Traders at prop firms are not referred to as "locals".

    As for who is hiring? I honestly don't understand your question. Are you talking about one of the "true prop" firms I mentioned like Chopper. Are they hiring? Or are you talking about firms like Bright who DO let you hold over night positions. Obviously Bright doesn't hire you, you provide your own capital, but you can hold over night positions.

    What makes this conversation with you difficult is you keep mixing and matching different things together. And you are not using the right "lingo". So I have to piece back your statements and figure out what you are really trying to ask and then answer that question and that is becoming tiresome.

    So let's try this one more time. Ask a very specific and precise question about what you are looking for with as much detail as possible and I'll give you the most honest answer you will get on this board.
     
  55. It's obvious you two have different backgrounds and are seeing things differently based on your backgrounds. In my opinion, Maverick does seem to have more experience on this issue. But attacking tradingmanual's English and calling him 19 is really unnecessary and is rather childish. I'm not knowledgeable enough to add useful comments so I'll just observe.
     
  56. Listen, if a trader has to put down $25,000 capital contribution plus pay commission plus pay software fee plus pay desk fee, it's not a job it's business partnership plus pay the prop operator percentage profit

    you aint' giving anyone a job and is by definition not prop trading more like local trader.


    QUOTE]Quote from Maverick74:

    Seriously, you do not have the right "lingo" down. You keep using the term "local" which in the past referred to a independent trader on the floor trading his own money, i.e. a local in the bond pit. Traders at prop firms are not referred to as "locals".

    As for who is hiring? I honestly don't understand your question. Are you talking about one of the "true prop" firms I mentioned like Chopper. Are they hiring? Or are you talking about firms like Bright who DO let you hold over night positions. Obviously Bright doesn't hire you, you provide your own capital, but you can hold over night positions.

    What makes this conversation with you difficult is you keep mixing matching different things together. And you are not using the right "lingo". So I have to piece back your statements and figure out what you are really trying to ask and then answer that question and that is becoming tiresome.

    So let's try this one more time. Ask a very specific and precise question about what you are looking for with as much detail as possible and I'll give you most honest answer you will get on this board.
    [/QUOTE]
     
  57. [/QUOTE]

    I never said otherwise. Look, there are two types of prop firms. I have discussed this at length on this message board. There are the "true prop firms" where they back you 100%. And then there are the firms where you back yourself. Both are very very different models. I have debated this topic relentlessly with Don Bright on here for years. Neither one of these are really true jobs in any sense.

    Some guys prefer to back themselves and enjoy the freedoms that come along with that. Other guys want to "work" for someone. They are very different jobs. I know plenty of traders in both areas. We can have that discussion. But I never said anytime on this board that trading for Bright or any other deposit firm is a job. In fact, that is precisely why guys choose to go there is because they don't want a JOB.
     
  58. Listen, I maybe brash and forward and at times impolite, that's my demeanor. On the plus side, you get a straight talking guy that is probably going to give more straight facts then anyone on this board. The downside is my tolerance for bullshit is really low and I'm going to deal with that very directly. I don't sell myself as a perfect person and I'm not on this board selling religion. I'm here to deal with facts.
     
  59. Hey Maverick, a little off topic here, but based on capital allocation I'm wondering what percentage of your firm's money is put into automated systems (that require minimal human interference). And for the manual traders, what's the typical minimum take home salary, after all expenses, annually? I'm guessing that $3-5 millions are the exceptions rather than the norm. (I would like to use those numbers as something to strive for in my small retail trading account.) Thanks for your input.
     
  60. The 3 to 5 million figure I mentioned earlier is what good traders made at Worldco over 10 years ago. Market is very different now. Much tougher. I honestly don't think you can categorize income based on whether someone is automated or not. As I said earlier to ES, automation is going to do nothing for you if you don't have a structural edge. If you have a nagative expectancy strategy all automating it will do is turn the strategy over more and more and increase the losses.

    In general, most prop firms that automate are either market making in options or trading stat correrlation. They are not trading moving average crossovers. If you have a high frequency strategy you better be getting rock bottom commisions.
     
  61. Our top traders are mostly automated. But, as Maverick was saying, they took high percentage strategies and automated them, so it's the strategy that must work primarily. The automation just allows them to do much more, much more quickly.

    The middle group are also partly automated, and all this varies by trader. Remember, at least in our Firm, traders have many different ways to make money...whatever works for them. Sure, some small groups work together, doing almost the same thing, but everyone is open to learning and doing new things.

    Don
     
  62. ^ Now that sounds the kind of environment I'd like to experience.

    Would anyone know if there is any firm in Montreal that has a similar style?
     
  63. How about Vancouver?
     
  64. That's on the other side of the pond, lol.

    But heck, list e'm if there are any. I might check them out one day if I ever visit Vancouver.
     
  65. Well, if you like Don Bright, you'll love his Vancouver office!

    Their affiliate there is Pairco. Check them out. Don, seriously, can I get a bathroom break now? LOL.
     
  66. LOL, gotta keep you busy it seems, or you may end up in the P&R section, LOL.

    Don
     
  67. Lol! Might drop by in the future. :D

    Hmm... is this it? I gotta say I've never been enamoured with system trading of any kind. I'm more the intuitive type who goes by, well, intuition (order flow patterns, etc.) rather than statistical analysis or quant stuff.

    But hey, I'm open to learning something new, and I'm interested in all types of trading, so I wouldn't mind learning all about it -- though I may never use it. :)
     
  68. That's it, our wholly owned subsidiary in Langley, BC.


    Don
     
  69. Hey, best I could find seems to be this: Link. Is that it?

    There are way too many posts about Montreal firms, so I might have missed any comprehensive list posted about MTL firms. Would you know which post in particular this was?

    Thanks!
     
  70. Call the Quebec securities commission, get the list.
     
  71. ^ Thanks! Right on it.
     
  72. I think I might just list my future experience(s) with Montreal prop firms here, for the benefit of future newbies.

    Anyway, about to add a couple new names to the first post for documentation purposes.

    Now:

    WTS: Legit firm in Montreal's financial district, close to the Orange metro line, as well as the Stock Exchange building. Good part of town, I like it. The WTS offices are clean and well lit, and there's a good 30+ trading setups in the main room with CNBC in the background.

    They have their own strat that their traders trade, and fees/payout seems good/ok for what it is. $1000 for 30h training + on-the-job support. Money's given back if you don't blow up after a year, so it might count as a risk deposit.

    Not for you if you're looking to trade your own strat, but might be worth it if you're looking to learn DoM/Level II/etc. and see what's what. Their bad rep seems to come from their US counterpart or something.

    And that's my view of WTS. Others to come up later as I check e'm out.
     
  73. Thanks for the comments!

    I am trying to contact and visit them recently, but their website seems down? what happens? Could anyone kindly post their contact info please? :confused: :confused:
     
  74. So anyone interested in trading in MTL, PM me.
     
  75. I am interested. But I can't use pm function since I am quite new to this forum.

    Could you please kindly send me a mail with your contact info(tel, address....) and fee structure to ruelorimier_at_gmail.com? Thanks.
     
  76. You must not be a trader if you're new to this forum. PM your contact info and we'll go from there.
    Merci.
    No.
     
  77. (Just bored on a Sunday)

    Curious as to whether anything came of your searches?

    Don
     
  78. ^ Postponed until September for the most part. Thanks for asking, though.

    I figured I'd best accumulate capital over the summer, then give prop a shot in the fall. In the meantime I can get peripheral info on the firms around here, though I'm a bit edgy about going for interviews since I wouldn't start right away and they might not like that or something.

    I wish I could also build up trading exp. during the summer, but my work hours aren't good for that. The Asian session is also **** these days (as a guy who doesn't have easy access to better software/brokers) so nothing to do but make end-of-day summaries of market activity and ****ty swing trades.

    I'll keep ya'll up to date if it's something of interest, though. :)
     
  79. I am once again on the lookout for firms, though I might as well add that anything anywhere that is legit and has people who know what they're doing is good enough for me. Forget about trading, I really just want to meet/get to know people who know what's what.

    That said, I've been looking into Maverick Trading, and I'm getting mixed signals. On the one hand, it's a reputable firm that will teach you Options trading, etc. On the other hand, they are shills selling education with a website designed to draw in newbies.

    I'm currently leaning towards the latter. Any opinions?
     
  80. What products do you want to trade?
     
  81. Anything and everything, lol.

    I haven't really developed a style yet, so I'm wide open. Most of my exp. is in options and currencies, though. Only chart watching as well, no order flow stuff like level 2, etc.

    So long as it makes money, I don't care what I trade.
     
  82. How much money are you prepared to lose, to learn to trade? How much time are you giving it? What is your risk assesment?
     
  83. If I had my way, then I've lost all the money I need to learn. But since that's likely not the case, then as little as possible. I always keep risk management very tight and disciplined if that's what you mean.

    I used to spend all my free time at it, but I can't really do that as much these days, so I've taken a more relaxed, weekly approach that suits me just fine right now. :)
     
  84. Good start on knowing the time frame. Now you still have to pick a product.Stocks,futures,forex,bonds,options.Sounds like swing trading might be your thing.
     
  85. Ah, I see what you're getting at now.

    Ok, well, I got into investments about 6 years ago when I was 19 and did stocks back then with a value-investor's mindset and did proper research on companies. But after learning more about the whole market game I started thinking that was a load of bullshit and got more into trading instead. I shopped around with stocks, bonds, options, futures, and currencies, though only live traded options, stocks, and currencies. The rest is demo experience. I'd like to at least try out futures on order flow software before writing that one out.

    Anyway, I've tried out pretty much every time frame, and I def. know that scalping and position trading isn't for me. I also know that I need to know more about what's out there because my current level of experience is insufficient. I also like trading enough to consider it as a career.

    Yes, I would agree I've come to appreciate swing trading, but I also like day trading as well. I'm a bit of both, really.

    But you are correct in that I have no idea what instrument to trade. I don't think I've found something entirely to my satisfaction yet. They all have their pros and cons.

    Hmm... Thanks for that, actually! This exercise cleared some stuff out. :D
     
  86. Take your time, don't rush in to it.The time you put in now, will pay off later.
    Keep me posted.
    seadog
     
  87. Ok, time for a bump.

    There's a new shop in town called OSTC, and they claim to be one of the world's leading providers of liquidity. I think Richard Audet is the manager's name. I've never heard of them before, so would anyone here like to chime in?

    Thanks!
     
  88. I've heard good things about Golden Market....
     
  89. Richard Audet used to be one of the partners at Arbgroup (also in Montreal). They are a futures prop firm that specialized in T-bill futures mostly on the canadian market. There used to be 3 partners there: Richard Audet, Marc Rivest and Amnon Baazov. They used to be floor market makers in the Montreal Stock exchange before it merged with Toronto. I do not know the story of what happened between them but now only Baazov is left.

    I met them once or twice, Audet seemed more like the mouthpiece and Baazov was the trading head at Arbgroup.

    That being said, I know nothing of OSTC but I know that Audet is in the business for many years.