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Liberal Film Critic Roeper Slams 9/11 Conspiracy Nuts

  1. Academics fill grassy knoll spot abandoned by Oliver Stone

    August 8, 2006


    The world has turned upside down in the nearly five years since 9/11. In Monday's Sun-Times, there was a story about 9/11 conspiracies. Among those quoted were a retired economics chairman at the University of Illinois, a teacher at the University of Wisconsin and a physicist at Brigham Young University.

    In Wednesday's Sun-Times, I'll have a review of Oliver Stone's "World Trade Center."

    Here's the weird part. The academics are the ones spouting the conspiracy theories, and Stone's film is 100 percent conspiracy-free.

    The article from the Associated Press was headlined, "Conspiracy theorists just aren't buying 9/11 story." We learned about a group called "Scholars for 9/11 Truth," or, as I like to call them, "A Bag of Mixed Nuts." Although they offer no concrete evidence to support their wild theories, they're educated and articulate, and they ask unanswerable questions, thus giving some of their theories a hint of plausibility.

    But let's not confuse that with credibility.

    Conspiracy Nation

    "Our role is to establish what really happened on 9/11," says James Fetzer, a retired philosophy professor from the University of Minnesota-Duluth.

    Right. A few of the more popular theories:

    •The World Trade Center was felled by explosives planted throughout the towers. The main goal of the terrorists was to steal some $160 billion in gold bars that were in a vault beneath the towers. If that sounds a bit like the plot for "Die Hard 3," so be it!

    •United Airlines Flight 93 was never hijacked, nor did it crash in Pennsylvania. It was diverted to Cleveland. (Either that or it was shot down by our own government.)

    •The Pentagon was not hit by a commercial plane. It was attacked by a cruise missile.

    And who's responsible for all this?

    "The first person I'd bring into a court of law would be Dick Cheney," said Dylan Avery, whose so-called documentary "Loose Change" has become something of an underground sensation. Fueled mostly by Internet buzz, "Loose Change" has sold tens of thousands of copies, even though it's an amateurish and maddeningly silly piece of work. Avery gave that quote to Salon.com in an article by Farhad Manjoo that did a brilliant job of dissecting some of the more ludicrous theories posited by the movie. (Unless, of course, the movie itself is an elaborate hoax, mocking conspiracy theorists. In that case, thumbs up!)

    Last May, when the U.S. military released video of American Airlines Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon, they did so in part to quiet the rattling of the conspiracy theorists who refuse to believe that a Boeing 757 flew into the building that day.

    "Where is the plane?" they ask. On Web sites, in books, in chat rooms, on talk radio, they ask: "Where is the plane?"

    As one debunker noted, these people think a Boeing 757 should have sliced through the walls of the Pentagon intact, leaving behind the kind of "perfect" outline you'd see if a plane crashed through a building in a cartoon. They don't understand that a relatively lightweight plane (it weighed about 100 tons, whereas each wall of the Pentagon weighs more than 100,000 tons) roaring into the steel-and-concrete walls of the Pentagon (which had recently been reinforced) would bust into hundreds of pieces -- and that many of those pieces would be INSIDE the damaged structure, not scattered about the lawn.

    "Where is the plane?" they ask. You can show them the military video and the photographs, you can cite the accounts of hundreds of eyewitnesses -- and they'll tell you the videos and photos are doctored, and the "witnesses" are part of the conspiracy.

    "Where is the plane?" they want to know.


    The plane hit the ground and skidded before striking the Pentagon between the first and second floors. It reached the third ring of the Pentagon as the jet fuel caused a massive explosion, destroying many of the larger pieces of wreckage. (Still, many sizable chunks of the plane were visible outside the Pentagon.) To wonder where the plane "disappeared to" makes about as much sense as visiting Ground Zero and saying, "Where are the buildings?"

    After the military released the video, Fetzer said, "It's a charade. You can't tell what in the world is hitting the Pentagon, but it's too small to be a Boeing 757."

    Of course, a former philosophy professor at the University of Minnesota-Duluth would know more about such things than those hacks at the FBI and the DOD. (Besides, those guys are all part of the conspiracy!)

    Here's a question: Where are the PEOPLE who were on that plane? If Flight 77 didn't crash into the Pentagon and Flight 93 didn't crash-land in a field in Pennsylvania, what happened to the planes and the passengers and crew? Where have they all been for the last half-decade?

    "Lost" is the name of a fictional series. That's not the way it works in the real world.

    Lost would also be a good word to describe those who believe this nonsense.

    Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

    Copyright © The Sun-Times Company
    All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
  2. bla bla bla, and the idiot is only able to offend those wo dont buy the lies the bush gov has told us since it took office. i bet my arse he cant argue shit about the facts surroundin' the events. classic ignorant motherfucker.
  3. Ok, I'm coming clean. Like many of you on ET, in the media, military, federal and local governments, and scientific community, I have received compensation from the U.S. Government in exchange for "keeping quiet" about 9/11. Flight 77? Never happened. Ted Olson was tired of his wife's yacking so we concocted the whole flight. Clearly the hole in the Pentagon wasn't big enough even for a disintegrating aircraft. Our engineers "measured" wrong. Happens. The service station owner who says he saw the plane impact into the Pentagon? Let's just say he's charging the highest prices for premium unleaded in all of Virginia without any FTC hindrance. We also gave him a nice tip to buy NYMEX futures last spring. He's doing very well, thank you.

    Of course many of you know by now that we had to shoot down Flight 93. Actually it wasn't originally part of our "plot" but sometimes Rummie likes to go for the "human angle" and the notion of heroic passengers commandeering a plane from the hijackers was just to good of a hook. Plus it kept media coverage tied up in knots. That's why you see made for TV movies about 93 and NOT about WTC 7.

    Up in New York things went like clockwork. Ever hear those rumors that the reason so few Jews were killed in the Trade Center was because they were tipped by Israeli intelligence? Not exactly true. Rather Mr. Silverstien did give some well placed hints that 9/11 was the real Yom Kippur and that atonement did NOT include yield curve arbitrage that Tuesday. From Long Island to the Upper West Side that fateful morning it was virtually impossible to get near a Deli that sold a tongue on rye. Nice work Larry!

    Downtown we had to lay the payola out thicker than thieves. We'd already told the FDNY that demolition of the twin towers would not start until three hours after our jets had made impact. You can imagine how pissed off the brass was when they found out about those 80 WTC elevator mechanics leaving the scene immediately. When we explained how the firefighters union will never have to fight again for another pay raise, they calmed down a bit. The cops were a little harder to appease and now with Kerik's nomination up in flames we'll have to sweeten the pot down the road. Not to worry though. New York's finest are great guys and without them turning a blind eye, publicly at least, we'd never have pulled this off.

    We got to Hillary early, well before , in 2000. We got Rudy out of the Senate race and gave her a clear win. One problem though is we promised both her AND Rudy the White House in 2008. We'll see if maybe something can't be worked out, after all Rudy's too moderate for the GOP ticket anyway.

    The media whores of course went snooping. Peter Jennings? Let's just say his lung cancer wasn't from cigarettes if you get my drift. Howard Stern was REALLY getting to be a pain in the ass. FCC fines, nothing would keep that big mouth quiet. He hears things and we worried he'd turn 9/11 into some sort of Lesbian implosion dial a date. Fortunately we were able to get him a divorce and nine figures from Sirius. The King of all Media is stoked! Hillary was a big help getting this shit past the Demo minority in Congress. Thank God she'd had the foresight to shoot that video of Boxer, Feinstein and Pelosi getting it on in front of her after that L.A. fundraiser. No siree, you won't hear a peep from those Dems.

    I forgot, yes FEMA. Of COURSE the report was a whitewash. But then Brown started acting all high and mighty. When we forced out O'Neill (thanks for the assist Bono) Brown started saying shit like if he wasn't the new Treasury secretary he'd spill the beans. Because of that incompetent ego-maniac we had to spend almost five years working on Katrina. Do you think it's easy diverting a Cat4 to the Big Easy? Hell we had to start a record number of storms before we nailed it. Good thing we slowed down Rita. That one was pure rogue and POTUS would have been real pissed if we accidently took out Houston. Notice how Brown quit on Sept. 12th this year. The Muslims have their "anniversary" dates and we have ours too.

    Me I used my noggin. Where as the Port authority and FDNY guys took their payoffs in depreciating dollars I asked for and got liquid gold. HAL. Euro denominated to boot. Baby.
  4. yawn
  5. you are right....

    Doesn't everyone's cell phone work at 30,000ft???

    Doesn't everyone call their family and refer to themselves by their first and last names???

    I know mine sure does...............lol NOT

    I mean like come on.... who's cell phone doesn't work at altitude...:confused:
  6. You're making many stupid assertions that you don't know the answers to. First off, analog cell phones work perfectly at high altitudes. As do those credit card phones in the back of the seats. Only digital cells have probs. So can you tell me what types of phones passengers were using? For all you know the only calls that made it out were from non-digital phones. Now granted, i know you have the IQ of a thimble but WHY THE FUCK would CELLPHONES be so IMPORTANT TO THE "PLOT" that anyone would GO TO THE TROUBLE of forging them? As if Dick Cheney said"well we better document some calls from the plane to loved ones or else NO IDIOT ON ELITE TRADER WILL BELIEVE THERE WERE PLANE CRASHES!!" Are you really as fucking stupid as you appear?


  7. next...

    "At 5:22 p.m. on September 11th 2001, the 47 story building number 7 of the World Trade Center Plaza came down in slightly over 8 seconds. The building had not been hit by any plane, nor sustained any significant damage from the "collapse" of the Twin Towers seven hours earlier, nor was there any major fire in the building at the time."



    Oh...... sorry you lost... but thanks for playing.... we have some lovely parting gifts for you by the exit.....

  8. i dont think so, an experiment has been conducted and these are the results...i think they tried a urray of different mobiles, i cant find the article where the experiment was described in details but i read it a couple of yrs ago:


    by the way have u got any scientific article or somethin' to back up your 'facts'?
  9. How far was the base of Building 7 from the base of the closest WTC main tower (i.e. one of the two that got hit)?
  10. since when one building comin' down bring down in sympathy buildings in the vicinity...and why only t7.

  11. yes there were a lot of other buildings much much closer to the Towers that fell that sustained more damage but somehow managed to stay upright...
  12. considerin' the strenght of t7 it is unprobable to say the least it came down 'cause of vibrations [damage wasn't any where near enough]; this would te the first case in history.
  13. I'd say that a few of these, ahhhh, fellows in this thread have never heard of Akem's Razor.....
  14. "Are you really as fucking stupid as you appear?"

    Tempting fate, are you?

  15. This is what you want to believe. Just admit it. Come clean. However, if you truly have an open mind but confused by the noise of anti-American propaganda, I will spend the time discussing the laws of physics and engineering and spell it all out to you. Bsmeter will say the laws of physics and engineering is a Jewish conspiracy. May as well talk to my pet Dog about 9/11. I think you are better than that.
  17. i wanna a past example of a buildin' of that size and strenght collapsin' on its own weight just like b7 did when it felt compassion for the towers.
    will get back to u tomorrow, its 4.14am here.

    by the way this aint anti american, is definetly pro-usa, seekin' for the truth, but sure is anti government.
  19. its the marlon brando fun club innit ;p
  20. I still don't see anyone in the 10 threads so far on the topic of WTC7 who actually believes the government's version of the story give me a good explanation as to why WTC7 collapsed....

    All they can do is call people names and say if you think there is another side to this story you are a moron and hate America...... amazing.

    WAKE UP please....


    Simple logic....

    If the towers fell because jet fuel was supposedly able to cause the fires in the building to burn hot enough to melt steel ..... and there was no jet fuel in WTC7.... what caused the same steel to suddenly lower it's melting point and collapse??

    Please let me know.. thanks

  21. This is good for a laugh!!

    <a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4696/publicscammed1ro5.png" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

    This is Even Better

    <a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1993/publicscammed2yg0.png" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

  22. Pabst, you evil conniving bastard. Is it true you also killed Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, and JonBenet? And what about this whole "Matrix" thing? Are the machines really controlling my mind?

  23. I have it on good intel that Pabst is the real life Dr. Evil. Where does he reside? Area 51 ring a bell? Yep! He's an alien too. All part of the grand plan to have us destroy ourselves without his alien nation ever having to fire a shot from their death ray space craft. After Iran laucnhes the first nuke, which by the way is being sold to them by the Bush administration, all nations will get involved and the end will come soon after. Then Pabst and his alien buddies come waltzing in and take over. That about cover it Pabst, you evil prick?!
    Wait! My decoder ring is picking up some new stuff. Gotta' run.
  24. LOL!

    Pabst, you asshole, you just blew the lid off the whole shebang. Next thing you'll be revealing the secrets of the Devil's Triangle and divulging that Elvis is hanging out in Cheney's basement. Sonuvabitch traitor to the neocon movement...
  25. I am still waiting for an answer to my prior post questions ....

    thank you
  26. u rememeber the sec/fbi investigation comin' to the conclusion that all those huge transactions were just natural instincts by traders? that gotta be the most idiotic justification i ever heard to cover up this whole affair. tho, since u just gotta hang around here to grasp then level of independent thinkin' of the average american, should not come as surprise it has been accepted as a reality. rofl
  27. FEMA never felt completely confident in their own findings which claimed fire on the 5th through 7th floors for the collapse. I'm sure you've already read the report but they admit no knowledge of another steel structured building collapsing so completely because of a seemingly moderate fire. FEMA has contracted the National Institute of Standards and Technology for a more comprehensive study. That report has been tardy. Perhaps you can contact the institute and receive a timeline.
  28. Perhap's you'll enjoy this article, bit.


    I can tell you this, when you trade a listed futures, options or stock in the United States your identity is completely transparent to regulators. No warrants needed. That's why successful "inside" traders use elaborate off shore omnibus accounts. The SEC may get as far as knowing the trade was from Acme Partners LLC of Thailand as executed by Goldman but they have a bitch finding out who the "partners" in Acme are. It doesn't appear any "ruse" was used on 9/11.

    Besides common sense would dictate that if one were rich and powerful enough to squash the 9/11 investigation on their options activity they'd also be rich enough to make more than a lousy couple of million on the inside news of the century.

  29. problem is pabst that those bastards are protected by law: the sec said that couldn't go into details just because of the existin' rights protectin' investors anonymity...the sec sure may know who the fuck did what that day but aint willin' to release it to the public.
    your common sense assertion is just that, an assertion...those involved dont necessarly need to be rich as hell and a few millions dollars is not pocket change. also an enormous transaction would have sure raised more than one eyebrow and u just dont know when they have been alerted of the attacks date..if it was right before it, they wouldnt have much time to accumulate millions of shares. still, remember that most of those profits were never collected and remain so to this date...clearly those involved either chickened out or have been ordered not to collect..so it is safe to assume from the course of action they just took a chance.

    edit; it's not necessarly the case that those involved in those trades were also responsible for quashin' the investigation...i think those in higher places had more interests in blockin' the enquiry than the insiders 'emselves.
  30. A few things. Of COURSE their anonymity should be protected. It's really no one else's business. What if you'd innocently bought a few UAL puts. Would you like your name and some other traders names to be on the NYT web site. Hardly. Much the same way if I'm audited without a forthcoming indictment I wouldn't expect the IRS to publicly mention my income.

    Secondly I can find no credible site that mentions uncollected winnings. As you know a put position isn't a lotto or race ticket (I went to the track today) but is a position held in a funded securities account. So there's no such thing as uncollected trades. Is that to say there's a trading account that has a positive balance but the owner has not requested a wire? I can find no mention of this account except in the looniest of web sites. Not exactly "proof" eh?

    I realize conspiracy scenarios have ALWAYS been popular. Seldom true though. For starters in something of a 9/11 scope, WAY too many people are needed to comply. If one were to listen to the mad rantings you'd have to think the NYPD, FAA, FBI, CIA, SEC and the 9/11 Commission ect. were all complicit in the murder of 3000 people. Get real. The payoff for the multitudes involved is what? The motive is what? Unfortunately there's so little honor in society today that conspiracies CAN"T work. Why? People sell each other out for very little. The first guy from FEMA who gets a DUI would be saying "if I tell you what I know can we knock this charge down?" What ultimately killed the Mafia in the U.S? Guy's ratting each other out. These day's it's a past time.
  31. i find it odd to say the least that u try find every explanation [for how much unplausible it is] for every suspicious event that took place n connection to 9/11. i mean, do u think it is all made up just for the sake of conspirin'?
    u are tryin' to justify the unjustifiable and i just cannot comprehend that. why all the data about transactions that took place in that year has been completely wiped out from any database. dont u find it very suspicious?

    and for what concerns conspiracies theories they might be popular but they dont interest me at all, none of those i read so far really carry any weight imo, neither has the insignificant evidence supportin' it. it's just 9/11 that show a consistent pattern of deciept and corruption...look at the opportunity the motives, the enormous amount of inconsistencies and suspicious events, it all points at a massive cover up and frankly even if there's just 1 single lie the government has told us about it and the discovery that in the end there was an intention to mislead then the whole official version of the facts falls apart just cuz it cannot be relied and trusted upon. the amount of evidence supportin' the gov's view that terrorists were responsible for the attacks pales compared to that supportin' it was an inside job. i mean, jesus xrist how can be so hard to believe this admininstration had a hand in it when a similar plan was already laid out decades ago in operation northwood.

    u can still believe what u wish tho pabst, i think the truth will come out sooner or later and u'll finally realize u've been a puppet and a pawn all along.
  32. back in 2000 rumsfy said in a memo that if another pearl harbor wasnt to occour the white house agenda would be doomed.
  33. Since when have repugnikans been interested in the truth?

    They seek power, profit and control, not truth nor justice...

    Just imagine if Bush had kept tape recordings the way Nixon did of what goes on behind closed doors...

    The issue to me is not whether or not 9/11 was a product of some grand conspiracy (I doubt it) but that the way in which this administration seized on the opportunity following 9/11 to advance the neocon agenda along with other hidden secret political and financial agendas...

    In the end, when we look to who profited the most in terms of acquisition of power and financial gain, the truth is to be found.

    The very fact that we see such blind partisanship, which wants to immediately squash any doubt or investigation, which portrays the Bush adminstration as pure as the driven snow, which supports a government that is opaque at best...not transparent, goes against the pattern of presidential administrations and abuse of power we have seen in the past.

  34. u are rigth, it is utterly useless to try reason with absolutist fascists, they have no interest in the truth; what matters to them is that the government is free from scrutiny, untouchable, unable to lie and do any arm as for default while the public has to put up with it and shut up....what freaks me out is that if it was up to them those seekin' to reopen 9/11 should be buried under a mile of cement and the only investigation conducted into the events blindly accepted as properly conducetd and revealin' the only possible truth.
  35. The pattern of secrecy began before 9/11.

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/waxman.pdf#search="bush administration secrecy"

    Secret meetings with oil companies?

    Why on earth does that need to be secret...

    As stated by William Jennings Bryan in 1915:
    The government being the people’s business, it necessarily follows that its
    operations should be at all times open to the public view. Publicity is
    therefore as essential to honest administration as freedom of speech is to representative government. “Equal rights to all and special privileges to
    none” is the maxim which should control in all departments of

    Or as Justice Louis D. Brandeis said in 1933, “sunlight is said to be the best of

  36. Competency of this administration is also the question in addition to whether or not they are ultimately trustworthy.

    Few except blind party loyalists will not find fault with the way in which Iraq has been handled, yet the administration's "Stay the Course" is essentially saying "Continue to trust us even though we don't really know what the heck we are doing."

    Why Rumsfeld still has a job is a mystery, he must have some dirt on Bush that Bush is afraid he might go public with if Rumsfeld was fired....

  37. and prolly on his father and cheney as well.
  38. Yes, of course I think it's made up just for the sake of conspirin'.

    I think if the WWW had been around in 1963 there'd be millions of web sites pointing to the grassy knoll.

    What I find weird Bit is that people focus on the bullshit instead of the real conspiracies engulfing us. IOW ridiculous stuff like WT7 or Katrina get's the attention of every juvenile blogger around. But where's the honest, factual discussions about Israel's immense influence on American/British policy in the Mid-East? Or think of how little American's know of deals with Cuba that kept Russian missiles out, Castro in and Guantanamo operational. Those treaties and agreements are VERY opaque.

    So Bit in reality I find these ridiculous 9/11 assertions (and one or two could be money) to be the ultimate anti intellectual but worse the ultimate-red herring, distractions from REAL issues. It doesn't take balls to yell "war for oil" or some nonsense. Instead it takes balls to say "why the fuck are Americans dying for Israel's land grab?" Or, "why do muslims engaged in so many global acts of terror?" If Michael Moore spoke any REAL truths he'd have been taken out long ago. Instead he merely distracts while the real problems keep on spinin' out of control.
  39. "But where's the honest, factual discussions about Israel's immense influence on American/British policy in the Mid-East?"

    Any criticism of Israel is immediately met with cries of anti Semitism.

    Look at how Buchanan has been branded for his unpopular views on Israel's actions.

    The PR machine that blindly defends the actions of Israel is quite strong, and few politicians have the gumption to bite the hand that most often feeds them...


  40. israel takes the ultimate lightspot in 9/11 and seekin' for the truth by openin' multiple investigations conducted by neutral bodies with no connection with the state and its interests is what we need to clear this matter once and for all and help address all the issues that cause america to be hated by everyone...but no worries i think that when these oil for war/war for oil cunts get kicked out of capitol hill the truth will come out and as i told u kennedy assasination, moon landin' and marylin death are not questionable imo....none of 'em show a pattern of deception as evident as 9/11.

    edit; by the way all the suspicions, accusations and questions raised in all the websites are important ones and need to be addressed, this aint juvenile stuff, many very educated felllas, includin' mit physicists have casted doubt around 9/11 events and provided proof demolishin' many of the govermnet version of the facts. the thread about 9/11 in this board couldnt have a more fittin' title: FINALLY...ASK QUESTIONS, DEMAND ANSWERS!.
  41. You never answered my question bit. If YOU had bought a few UAL puts do you think your name, address and "reason" for placing the trade should be in the public domain? If you say yes that the SEC should go public with people's trades then I'd have to examine who's the REAL fascist.

    If anything you live in a place that's SUPER fascist compared to the U.S. Just look at my day today. Woke up, drove to a gun shop where I purchased a strap for my LEGAL automatic rifle, got back in the car and fired up a joint and went to the racetrack where I was able to bet on the Alabama being run 1000 miles away in Sarasota. Just another day in dictatorsville. It would be funny except 200 miles from here is REAL fascism. In Havana today no one was cruzin in a 350Z convertible buying a firearm accessory and betting on a horse race. Once again Bit, focus on the REAL rather than the illusionary.
  42. i'd had no problem whatsoever to allow an investigation into my tradin' if by chance i'd bought ual or gs puts, on the contrary i would welcome it and i'd even be ready to renounce to all my profits if that served to find and punish all those responsible for tryin' to profit from the attacks..remember tho that the pattern for insider tradin' is unusual volumes not a freakin' plancton transaction made by an italian fella.

  43. A few? No. 4500, which was more than 5 times the daily average? Yes.

    By the way, your source was the National Review for God's sake.
    Sure nice way of trying to explain away the unusual activities, but sorry, didn't work.

    Now there were early reports that these puts were purchased via a German bank that had one of the CIA exec. directors on board. Lately, I can't find anymore these reports on the web...

    Edit: Here is your lucky day, I managed to find it:

    CIA Executive Director “Buzzy” Krongard managed firm that handled “PUT” options on United Airline Stock :

  44. By the way Pabst, your NR article failed to explain away this one:

    "Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., which occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Center, saw 2,157 of its October $45 put options bought in the three trading days before Black Tuesday; this compares to an average of 27 contracts per day before September 6."

    Please notice the FEW options. 2157 options compared to 27 averaged before!!! Quite a few I would say....A slight increase too...
  45. nah, it is all fabrication, has no relevance and just all shit make up for the sake of conspirin'.

  46. a bit off-topic but hey zdreg, u recall i told u it is possible to keep a short position on a security for a period of up to 4month...well, i have a photographic memory and was sure i read it somewhere...check out the link below.

  47. As bewildering as this topic is, it certainly provides an opportunity for the crackpots to expose themselves. The "evidence" is so thin, anyone willing to argue on its behalf or attach their names to it should be embarrassed. I'm embarrassed for you.

    As for the cell phone, the plane never made it to 30,000 feet.

    4500 and 2500 contracts is nothing!
    5x the average daily contract volume is nothing!

    I don't have option volume data, but if you've ever paid attention, options regularly have massive swings ativity because the volumes are so low to begin with. One order can easily surpass 10x the average volume on a contract. Imagine that, someone shorting the Airlines?! Shit, stocks regularly see 5x average volumes.

    "Ok Mr. President, we focus-grouped it, and when the planes hit , the most effective setting for you is reading "My pet goat" to pre-schoolers. After hearing the news, give the deer in a headlights stare, and continue reading to the kids ..."

  48. The reason why Rumsfeld still has his job is because Bush is loyal to his supporters to a fault. Harriet Myers comes to mind ...

    "Stay the Course" means be strong in the face of adversity. "Pull out Now" means run away with your tail between your legs like little girls.
  49. ...and pattersb enters the fracas expressing his ignorance on the subject.But don't be affraid, I will hold your hand and educate you, free of charge.

    Quote from pattersb:

    4500 and 2500 contracts is nothing!

    Ignorance #1: A blanket statement like this is clearly meaningless. Unless you know what the average contract numbers traded were before the attack (how about 27 contracts??) just throwing out numbers is, well meaningless.

    5x the average daily contract volume is nothing!

    Depends on the stock. If the number of ctrs never fluctuated above 3 times a fluctuation of 5 times could be signifficant. But:

    Ignorance #2: In my post I mentioned a stock that had a 70 times fluctuation of the average daily ctr, is that high enough for you???

    One order can easily surpass 10x the average volume on a contract.

    I agree. But that is usually before earnings, court rulings or other
    signifficant event, that can effect the stock's price. What kind of important event was coming up before 9/11?

    By the way I haven't even mentioned stocks where there was call buying, because of the military/deffense category of the stock...
  50. Another good datasource for ignoramuses:


    "A jump in UAL (United Airlines) put options 90 times (not 90 percent) above normal between September 6 and September 10, and 285 times higher than average on the Thursday before the attack.
    -- CBS News, September 26
    A jump in American Airlines put options 60 times (not 60 percent) above normal on the day before the attacks.
    -- CBS News, September 26
    No similar trading ocurred on any other airlines
    -- Bloomberg Business Report, the Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), Herzliyya, Israel [citing data from the CBOE]
    Morgan Stanley saw, between September 7 and September 10, an increase of 27 times (not 27 percent) in the purchase of put options on its shares.

    Merrill-Lynch saw a jump of more than 12 times the normal level of put opinions in the four trading days before the attacks.

    Raytheon, maker of Patriot and Tomahawk missiles, saw its stock soar immediately after the attack. Purchases of call options on Raytheon stock increased sixfold on the day before the attack."

  51. This is the last post of yours I'll respond to. Clearly, you are not worth my time.

    Your including 4500 put contract volume among the "EVIDENCE" of a government orchestrated conspiracy on 9/11 is laughable.
  52. Instead of posting bullshit let's just quote the 9/11 Commission Report. and BTW: HAL shares fell 30% the next week......

    Appendix B: Securities Trading
    This appendix describes the staff and U.S. government investigations into the issue of
    whether anyone with foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks profited through securities
    trading, and explains the conclusion in the Commission’s final report that extensive
    government investigation has revealed no evidence of such illicit trading.
    Almost since 9/11 itself, there have been consistent reports that massive “insider trading”
    preceded the attacks, enabling persons apparently affiliated with al Qaeda to reap huge
    profits. The Commission has found no evidence to support these reports. To the contrary,
    exhaustive investigation by federal law enforcement, in conjunction with the securities
    industry, has found no evidence that anyone with advance knowledge of the terrorist
    attacks profited through securities transactions.
    Commission Staff Investigation
    Commission staff had unrestricted access to the U.S. government officials who led and
    conducted the investigation into securities trading in advance of 9/11. In addition to
    interviewing the key personnel, Commission staff reviewed the nonpublic government
    reports summarizing the investigative results as well as backup data, including
    spreadsheets, memoranda and other analyses, and reports of interviews with traders,
    securities industry participants, and other witnesses. We obtained and reviewed the
    reports of investigations done by certain major nongovernmental securities industries
    bodies who share responsibility with the government for monitoring securities trading in
    U.S. markets, including the New York Stock Exchange and the National Association of
    Securities Dealers Regulation, and interviewed witnesses from a key private-sector entity.
    Commission staff also reviewed information provided by foreign securities regulators,
    interviewed German law enforcement officials, and interviewed U.S. law enforcement
    personnel regarding their contacts with their foreign counterparts on securities trading.
  53. In addition, Commission staff drew on its review of extensive classified intelligence
    concerning al Qaeda and how it manages its operations and its finances, as well as
    debriefings of al Qaeda detainees, including 9/11 plot leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
    and other plot participants. This information proved useful in evaluating how closely held
    al Qaeda kept the 9/11 operation and the likelihood it would seek to profit from the
    attacks through securities trading.
    The U.S. Government Investigation of Trading in the United
    The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the FBI, with the involvement of
    the Department of Justice, conducted the investigation of the allegation that there was
    National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States

    illicit trading in advance of 9/11; numerous other agencies played a supporting role.166
    The SEC’s chief of the Office of Market Surveillance initiated an investigation into pre-
    9/11 trading on September 12, 2001. At a multi-agency meeting on September 17, at FBI
    headquarters, the SEC agreed to lead the insider trading investigation, keeping the FBI
    involved as necessary. The Department of Justice assigned a white-collar crime
    prosecutor from the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Brooklyn to work full-time on the
    investigation; he relocated to Washington, D.C., on September 18.
    The SEC undertook a massive investigation, which at various times involved more than
    40 staff members from the SEC’s Division of Enforcement and Office of International
    Affairs. The SEC also took the lead on coordinating intensive investigations by the selfregulatory
    organizations (SROs) that share responsibility for monitoring the U.S.
    securities markets, including, among others, the New York Stock Exchange, the
    American Stock Exchange, the National Association of Securities Dealers Regulation,
    and the Chicago Board Options Exchange. The investigation focused on securities of
    companies or industries that could have been expected to suffer economically from the
    terrorist attacks. Thus, the investigators analyzed trading in the following sectors:
    airlines, insurance, financial services, defense and aerospace, security services, and travel
    and leisure services, as well as companies with substantial operations in the area of the
    World Trade Center. The investigation also included broad-based funds that could have
    been affected by a major shock to the U.S. economy. Ultimately, the investigators
    analyzed trading in 103 individual companies and 32 index or exchange-traded funds and
    examined more than 9.5 million securities transactions.
    The investigators reviewed any trading activity that resulted in substantial profit from the
    terrorist attacks. Investments that profited from dropping stock prices drew great scrutiny,
    including short selling and the purchase of put options.168 The SEC has long
    experience in investigating insider trading violations, which can involve the use of these
    techniques by those who know of an impending event that will make stock prices fall.
    The investigators also sought to determine who profited from well-timed investments in
    industries that benefited from the terrorist attacks, such as the stock of defense and
    security companies, and who timely liquidated substantial holdings in companies likely to
    suffer from the attacks.
    166 The SEC is an independent federal agency entrusted with enforcing the federal securities laws. Its
    Division of Enforcement has extensive experience in investigating insider trading. Because the SEC lacks
    authority to bring criminal cases, it regularly works jointly with the FBI and DOJ, as it did in this case, on
    potentially criminal securities law violations.
    167 Short selling is a strategy that profits from a decline in stock price. A short seller borrows stock from a
    broker dealer and sells it on the open market. At some point in the future, he closes the transaction by
    buying back the stock and returning it to the lending broker dealer.
    168 A put option is an investment that profits when the underlying stock price falls. A put option contract
    gives its owner the right to sell the underlying stock at a specified strike price for a certain period of time.
    If the actual price drops below the strike price, the owner of the put profits because he can buy stock
    cheaper than the price for which he can sell it. By contrast, a call option contract is an investment that
    profits when the underlying stock price rises. A call option contract gives its owner the right to buy the
    underlying stock at a specified strike price for a certain time period. People illicitly trading on inside
    information often have used options because they allow the trader to leverage an initial investment, so that
    a relatively small investment can generate huge profits.
    Terrorist Financing Staff Monograph
    The SEC investigators reviewed voluminous trading records to identify accounts that
    made trades that led to profits as a result of the attacks. The SEC followed up on any such
    trades by obtaining documents and, where appropriate, interviewing the traders to
    understand the rationale for the trades. The SEC also referred to the FBI any trade that
    resulted in substantial profit from the attacks—a much lower threshold for a criminal
    referral than it would normally employ. Consequently, the FBI conducted its own
    independent interviews of many of the potentially suspicious traders. The SROs, which
    have extensive market surveillance departments, played a key role in the SEC
    investigation by providing information and, in some cases, detailed reports to the
    commission. In addition, the SEC directly contacted 20 of the largest broker-dealers and
    asked them to survey their trading desks for any evidence of illicit trading activity. It also
    asked the Securities Industry Association—the broker-dealer trade group—to canvass its
    members for the same purpose.
  54. The SEC investigation had built-in redundancies to ensure that any suspicious trading
    would be caught. For example, the SEC reviewed massive transaction records to detect
    any suspicious option trading and also obtained reports, known as the Large Option
    Position Reports and Open Interest Distribution Reports, that identified the holders of
    substantial amounts of options without regard to when those options were purchased.
    Similarly, to ensure full coverage, the SEC obtained information from a number of
    entities that play a role in facilitating short sales. Between these efforts, the work of the
    SROs, and the outreach to industry, the chief SEC investigator expressed great
    confidence that the SEC investigation had detected any potentially suspicious trade.
    No Evidence of Illicit Trading in the United States
    The U.S. government investigation unequivocally concluded that there was no evidence
    of illicit trading in the U.S. markets with knowledge of the terrorist attacks. The
    Commission staff, after an independent review of the government investigation, has
    discovered no reason to doubt this conclusion.
    To understand our finding, it is critical to understand the transparency of the U.S.
    markets. No one can make a securities trade in the U.S. markets without leaving a paper
    trail that the SEC can easily access through its regulatory powers. Moreover, brokerdealers
    must maintain certain basic information on their customers. It is, of course,
    entirely possible to trade through an offshore company, or a series of nominee accounts
    and shell companies, a strategy that can make the beneficial owner hard to determine.
    Still, the investigators could always detect the initial trade, even if they could not
    determine the beneficial owner. Any suspicious profitable trading through such accounts
    would be starkly visible. The investigators of the 9/11 trades never found any blind alleys
    caused by shell companies, offshore accounts, or anything else; they were able to
    investigate the suspicious trades they identified. Every suspicious trade was determined
    to be part of a legitimate trading strategy totally unrelated to the terrorist attacks.
    National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
    Many of the public reports concerning insider trading before 9/11 focused on the two
    airline companies most directly involved: UAL Corp., the parent company of United
    Airlines, and AMR Corp., the parent company of American Airlines. Specifically, many
    people have correctly pointed out that unusually high volumes of put options traded in
    UAL on September 6–7 and in AMR on September 10.169
    When the markets opened on September 17, AMR fell 40 percent and UAL fell 43
    percent. The suspicious options trading before the attacks fueled speculation that al
    Qaeda had taken advantage of the U.S. markets to make massive profits from its
    murderous attacks. The allegations had appeal on their face—just as al Qaeda used our
    sophisticated transportation system to attack us, it appeared to have used our
    sophisticated markets to finance itself and provide money for more attacks. But we
    conclude that this scenario simply did not happen.
    Although this report will not discuss each of the trades that profited from the 9/11 attacks,
    some of the larger trades, particularly those cited in the media as troubling, are illustrative
    and typical both of the nature of the government investigation into the trades and of the
    innocent nature of the trading. The put trading in AMR and UAL is a case in point: it
    appeared that somebody made big money by betting UAL and AMR stock prices were
    going to collapse, yet closer inspection revealed that the transactions were part of an
    innocuous trading strategy.
    The UAL trading on September 6 is a good example. On that day alone, the UAL put
    option volume was much higher than any surrounding day and exceeded the call option
    volume by more than 20 times—highly suspicious numbers on their face.170 The SEC
    quickly discovered, however, that a single U.S. investment adviser had purchased 95
    percent of the UAL put option volume for the day. The investment adviser certainly did
    not fit the profile of an al Qaeda operative: it was based in the United States, registered
    with the SEC, and managed several hedge funds with $5.3 billion under management. In
    interviews by the SEC, both the CEO of the adviser and the trader who executed the trade
    explained that they—and not any client—made the decision to buy the put as part of a
    trading strategy based on a bearish view of the airline industry. They held bearish views
    for a number of reasons, including recently released on-time departure figures, which
    suggested the airlines were carrying fewer passengers, and recently disclosed news by
    AMR reflecting poor business fundamentals. In pursuit of this strategy, the adviser sold
    short a number of airline shares between September 6 and September 10; its transactions
    included the fortunate purchase of UAL puts. The adviser, however, also bought 115,000
    shares of AMR on September 10, believing that their price already reflected the recently
    released financial information and would not fall any further. Those shares dropped
    significantly when the markets reopened after the attacks. Looking at the totality of the
    adviser’s circumstances, as opposed to just the purchase of the puts, convinced the SEC
    that it had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks or al Qaeda. Still, the SEC referred
    169 See, e.g., September 18, 2001 Associated Press Report.
    170 A high ratio of puts to calls means that on that day far more money was being bet that the stock price
    would fall than that the stock price would rise. Such a ratio is a potential indicator of insider trading—
    although it can also prove to have entirely innocuous explanations, as in this case.Terrorist Financing Staff Monograph
    the trade to the FBI, which also conducted its own investigation and reached the same
    The AMR put trading on September 10 further reveals how trading that looks highly
    suspicious at first blush can prove innocuous. The put volume of AMR on September 10
    was unusually high and actually exceeded the call volume by a ratio of 6:1—again,
    highly suspicious on its face. The SEC traced much of the surge in volume to a California
    investment advice newsletter, distributed by email and fax on Sunday, September 9,
    which advised its subscribers to purchase a particular type of AMR put options. The SEC
    interviewed 28 individuals who purchased these types of AMR puts on September 10,
    and found that 26 of them cited the newsletter as the reason for their transaction. Another
    27 purchasers were listed as subscribers of the newsletter. The SEC interviewed the
    author of the newsletter, a U.S. citizen, who explained his investment strategy analysis,
    which had nothing to do with foreknowledge of 9/11. Other put option volume on
    September 10 was traced to similarly innocuous trades.
    Another good example concerns a suspicious UAL put trade on September 7, 2001. A
    single trader bought more than one-third of the total puts purchased that day, establishing
    a position that proved very profitable after 9/11. Moreover, it turns out that the same
    trader had a short position in UAL calls—another strategy that would pay off if the price
    of UAL dropped. Investigation, however, identified the purchaser as a well-established
    New York hedge fund with $2 billion under management. Setting aside the unlikelihood
    of al Qaeda having a relationship with a major New York hedge fund, these trades looked
    facially suspicious. But further examination showed the fund also owned 29,000 shares of
    UAL stock at the time—all part of a complex, computer-driven trading strategy. As a
    result of these transactions, the fund actually lost $85,000 in value when the market
    reopened. Had the hedge fund wanted to profit from the attacks, it would not have
    retained the UAL shares.
    These examples were typical. The SEC and the FBI investigated all of the put option
    purchases in UAL and AMR, drawing on multiple and redundant sources of information
    to ensure complete coverage. All profitable option trading was investigated and resolved.
    There was no evidence of illicit trading and no unexplained or mysterious trading.
    Moreover, there was no evidence that profits from any profitable options trading went
  55. 171
    The options trading in UAL and AMR was typical of the entire investigation. In all
    sectors and companies whose trades looked suspicious because of their timing and
    171 The press has reported this claim, and the allegation even found its way into the congressional testimony
    concerning terrorist financing of a former government official. The government investigation would have
    detected such traders because the investigators focused on people who purchased profitable positions—
    regardless of when or whether or when they closed out the position. Moreover, officials at the SEC and the
    Options Clearing Corporation, a private entity that processes options trading, pointed out that any profitable
    options positions are automatically exercised upon the expiration date unless the customer explicitly
    directed otherwise. Any direction not to exercise profitable options is a highly unusual event, which the
    OCC double-checks by contacting the broker who gave them such instruction. The OCC personnel had no
    recollection of any such contacts after 9/11.
    National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
    profitability, including short selling of UAL, AMR, and other airline stocks, close
    scrutiny revealed absolutely no evidence of foreknowledge. The pattern is repeated over
    and over. For example, the FBI investigated a trader who bought a substantial position in
    put options in AIG Insurance Co. shortly before 9/11. Viewed in isolation, the trade
    looked highly suspicious, especially when AIG stock plummeted after 9/11. The FBI
    found that the trade had been made by a fund manager to hedge a long position of 4.2
    million shares in the AIG common stock. The fund manager owned a significant amount
    of AIG stock, but the fund had a very low tax basis in the stock (that is, it had been
    bought long ago and had appreciated significantly over time). Selling even some of it
    would have created a massive tax liability. Thus, the fund manager chose to hedge his
    position through a put option purchase. After 9/11, the fund profited substantially from its
    investment in puts. At the same time, however, it suffered a substantial loss on the
    common stock, and overall lost money as a result of the attacks.
    In sum, the investigation found absolutely no evidence that any trading occurred with
    foreknowledge of 9/11. The transparency of the U.S. securities markets almost ensures
    that any such trading would be detectable by investigators. Even if the use of some
    combination of offshore accounts, shell companies, and false identification obscured the
    identity of the traders themselves, the unexplained trade would stand out like a giant red
    flag. The absence of any such flags corroborates the conclusion that there is no evidence
    any such trading occurred. Indeed, the leaders of both the SEC and FBI investigations
    into pre-9/11 trading expressed great confidence in this conclusion.
  56. Yeah, and as we know Kennedy was shot by a lonely sniper...
  57. You don't find it suspicous that not a SINGLE person in 43 years has made a deathbed confession, sold their story for millions or come clean ?
  58. How many deathbead confessions do we get from Mafia leaders?

  59. How many Mafia leaders haven't been tricked out by underlings? I can't think of a single Chicago "boss" who hasn't gone to jail in the past two decades.

    And besides is there any financial windfall for someone to publicly proclaim the story of how they killed Vinnie the Bookie?
  60. Mules are very well known for staying their own course, that's why we call them Jackasses....

  61. High level Mafia, orders Jack Ruby to kill the "lone gunman" who himself was directed by a high level Mafia.

    No flunkies involved...

    By the way, where is Jimmy Hoffa?


  62. I actually read the whole thing (Pabst post), because I am waiting if it is going to rain or not. Well, the first 3/4 of it was a waste of bandwith, but then came the interesting part.

    It looks like that these traders :

    - got either incredibly lucky and just guessed at the right time (have you ever taken a probability class?)

    - some of them were dumb, because they also bought the stocks and eventually ended up with a loss (we have to believe here without any shown evidence that both the puts and the stockbuyer were the same persons)

    The commission failed to explain away a bunch of other suspicious trades (Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley), simply putting them together and saying: "all the rest was similar to the quoted and explained example."

    Now here comes the double whammy! Suspicious activities didn't just happen in the US!!! :

    "German central bank president Ernst Welteke later reports that a study by his bank indicates, “There are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge,” not only in shares of heavily affected industries such as airlines and insurance companies, but also in gold and oil. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001] His researchers have found “almost irrefutable proof of insider trading.” [Miami Herald, 9/24/2001] “If you look at movements in markets before and after the attack, it makes your brow furrow. But it is extremely difficult to really verify it.” Nevertheless, he believes that “in one or the other case it will be possible to pinpoint the source.” [Fox News, 9/22/2001] Welteke reports “a fundamentally inexplicable rise” in oil prices before the attacks [Miami Herald, 9/24/2001] and then a further rise of 13 percent the day after the attacks. Gold rises nonstop for days after the attacks. [Daily Telegraph, 9/23/2001]"

    Also care to explain this:

    "Mayo Shattuck III resigns, effective immediately, as head of the Alex Brown unit of Deutsche Bank. No reason is given. Some speculate later that this could have to do with the role of Deutsche Bank in the pre-9/11 purchases of put options on the stock of companies most affected by 9/11. [New York Times, 9/15/2001; Wall Street Journal, 9/27/2001]"
  63. There's zillions of unsolved murders. I'm talking about conspiracies. Did hundreds of people need to participate in Hoffa's death?

    Has there ever been a single credible piece of EVIDENCE tying anyone other than Oswald to JFK's death?
  64. By the way I liked the way how the Commission picked AIG and explained that one, when the really suspicious trades happened in:

    "Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co. and Merrill Lynch & Co. were both headquartered in lower Manhattan at the time of the attack. Morgan Stanley occupied 22 floors of the North Tower and Merrill Lynch had headquarters near the Twin Towers. Morgan Stanley, which saw an average of 27 put options on its stock bought per day before September 6, saw 2,157 put options bought in the three trading days before the attack. Merrill Lynch, which saw an average of 252 put options on its stock bought per day before September 5, saw 12,215 put options bought in the four trading days before the attack. Morgan Stanley's stock dropped 13% and Merrill Lynch's stock dropped 11.5% when the market reopened.

    Bank of America showed a fivefold increase in put option trading on the Thursday and Friday before the attack. "

    Must be some lucky son of a bitches... I wonder what was their explanation of being bearish on those stocks?
  65. Zillions of unsolved murders?

    More hyperbole from Pa(b)st his prime.

    So where is Hoffa?

    A conspiracy doesn't require any more than 2 people, by law...

    Hey, if you want to continue to naively believe that powerful wealthy people don't conspire, stay in your own little world...

    Personally, I am not saying I know how Kennedy was killed, or who was involved, but there are obvious reasons to doubt the "official story" and the Warren Report...

  66. You're using many fallacious arguments. First off Peklo, there's survivorship bias in many of these "trades." IOW's if I look down the list of WTC tenants and find large put buyers in one or two, what about the others? Canter was the only firm that was close to being WIPED out and their stock (espeed, the Treasury trading platform) rose the days before 9/11. HAL which is a conspiracy nuts favorite was salvaged not only the next week but for the next year. As far as "luck", UAL was breaking down for weeks into 9/11. Surprised there were put buyers?

    As far as probabilities, my advice after 22 years of futures trading (I doubt anyone on ET has traded as many contracts as me) leave that shit in the classroom. Any idea what the "odds" of a 22.6% Dow decline in one day (10/19/87) were? I play at least one backgammon game a day for money. A few weeks back I rolled "snake eyes" on four consecutive rolls. The odds? 1 in 1.7 million!! So the "probability" that a hedge fund would buy a bunch of puts in a weak stock in a weak industry is not on my radar of statistically improbable.
  67. I notice that none of the 'space-aliens-ate-my-Buick' types on here bothered to answer my question, which was a very simple one - how far was the base of bldg. 7 from the base of the nearest WTC tower that got hit?

    Sam123... I wonder if your explanations would involve the tendency for large masses of solid matter in motion, like those found in rockslides, to act remarkably like liquids?

    Seems to me that the nutbags who keep parroting 'Building 7! Building 7' as proof that there were no planes and that the whole thing was orchestrated by George W. Bush and his wife are missing a very obvious point here.
  68. ......
  69. If you never saw the JFK documentary by Peter Jennings a few years back I'd suggest renting the DVD. Technology available today convincingly debunks the grassy knoll.....

    When did I infer people don't conspire. I merely said dozens or hundreds don't successfully conspire without the cat very rapidly getting out of the bag.

    I know what a conspiracy is
  70. 9/11 has never happened.Seriously:D
  71. Well a dozen years of a half million to one million sides in the Bonds per year would have to put me up there.....
  72. It doesn't take dozens to conspire...


    It only takes two.

  73. Yawn...

    Pa(b)st his prime...


  74. So you're conceding no elaborate "cover-ups"?
  75. At least I had a prime, LoZZZer.
  76. Just another middle aged man living in his imagination of the "Glory Days"

    Pa(b)st his prime...

  77. I don't know if their were or were not elaborate cover ups, my mind is open, unlike yours...

    A conspiracy is a reasonable doubt...

  78. I feel better now knowing that the FBI and SEC were in on the conspiracy, along with Deutsche Bank and Molly Ringwald.

    Thank you, moonbats, for making it all so clear. I'll sleep better now knowing sharp minds like yours are the arbiters of truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
  79. Yes, yes... generally speaking It's healthy to always keep an open mind. I'd love to see more people consider it.

  80. R

    You're an idiot. Please stop making such ridiculous statements.
  81. the kennedy assasination sure smell sour, but it's true that there's very little [if none] evidence to support the case for a conspiracy...new research has been done latelty and a digital reconstruction of old photographs and flims has highlited some peculiar evidence not seen before but still almost nothin'.... that there is reasonable grounds for doubt? sure, but it's not even close to 9/11...to compare the 2 events and sayin' that the attacks like the jfk case show no pattern of deception and no trace of a cover up u gotta be bilnd or in complete denial.
  82. Quote from Pabst:

    You're using many fallacious arguments.

    Not my hobby, I almost never do. I will give you $10 for each you find.

    First off Peklo, there's survivorship bias in many of these "trades." IOW's if I look down the list of WTC tenants and find large put buyers in one or two, what about the others?

    Good point in a different way. Can you or the SEC show us that there were huge put buying in the scale of 50-80 times of the daily average in other stocks completely unrelated to 911 in the previous week?

    Also, I would like to see that fundmanager gentleman's trading records going back a few years back to see if he did similar putbuyings on the same magnitude.

    Also I would like to ask what is the point of buying puts and stocks at the SAME TIME, but I will ask this in the option section.

    Cantor was the only firm that was close to being WIPED out and their stock (espeed, the Treasury trading platform) rose the days before 9/11.

    I fail to see your point. That nobody bought puts on it? hell whoever did the buying they diversified, but they couldn't diversify
    into everybody.

    HAL which is a conspiracy nuts favorite was salvaged not only the next week but for the next year.

    Again, must be my bad, but I don't see the point. Unless you are explaining away stocks, that nobody complained about.

    As far as "luck", UAL was breaking down for weeks into 9/11. Surprised there were put buyers?

    To the magnitude of 70 times of the usual? By the way what's the story with the other 2 companies I mentioned? You carefully left them out (so did the SEC), because you don't have an answer for it.

    As far as probabilities, ...

    Here is a better, but unrelated probability question:

    What is the chance that exitpolls don't work in states where there is an electronic machine without papertrail, but they work perfectly (agreeing with the final result) where there is a papertrail? :)
  84. You're clearly a sane person. Certainly no offense meant by fallacious. Not a point by point rebuttal but don't get hung up on BS like 900% of normal volume, blah , blah, blah. Equity options aren't real volume heavy. I've seen stocks that trade 30 options a day suddenly trade 10,000 in a day because a random manager decides to use some esoteric strategy. If you take away that single hedge fund from AMR it doesn't appear the options traded anything more than usual. And while I don't have the data I would BET BLIND that we would find a couple of DOZEN stocks with weird volume preceeding 9/11. Like I say in options that's a matter of course. The reason I mentioned Cantor is that stock was BY FAR the best short yet it rose into the attack. Why do folks fixate on MER's activity. Was their opperation wiped out? Hardly. I'm not even sure if they had space in the Twin Towers.

    By far the biggest "common sense" thing I can say about this is, No one SMART enough to concoct this plan would be STUPID enough to trade U.S. Exchange traded options. There's SO many easier ways to hide your business from regulators. The CBOE doesn't even need ask the SEC to find out a customer's name on a trade. MM's in options pits have been picked off so many times on inside news that the exchanges are mega pro-active looking for it.

    Like I told Bit, " When you trade a listed futures, options or stock in the United States your identity is completely transparent to regulators. No warrants needed. That's why successful "inside" traders use elaborate off shore omnibus accounts. The SEC may get as far as knowing the trade was from Acme Partners LLC of Thailand as executed by Goldman but they have a bitch finding out who the "partners" in Acme are. It doesn't appear any "ruse" was used on 9/11. "

    Or as another poster mentioned on a different thread, these days one can use OTC derivatives. Whichever the case only a really STUPID asshole who has inside info of such magnitude is going to use an exchange traded product unless set up off-shore.

    As a matter of disclosure, I've mentioned here before, I blew my entire year in 2001 because of 9/11 on an options trade! So I'd love to be able to say I was "picked off" lol. I was long and wrong........
  85. pabst, u dont understand impulsive greed apparently; i thought u would after all these years in the mkt...well, on second thot that doesnt really come as a surprise.
  86. Nothing impulsive about someone who had $4,000,000 at the ready in an account to buy premium.

    Bottom line Bit. The 9/11 Commission issued a report. There were comprehensive findings contained. You can choose to accept the report or not. However you offer nothing factual in rebuttal. I realize this is a message board but by the same I feel little need to speculate outside of trading and gambling. A discussion of unknowns is pointless.

    You're a talented guy. Take some time off and work on an investigative piece. I mean it. I suddenly quit trading in '04 and ran for Congress. I'll never have an experience like that again. You know markets. That in itself would give you a leg up on most of the shoddy bloggers I've seen attempt to explain these 9/11 trading issues. I doubt you'll find much but here's the opp to stick it in people's faces......
  87. pabst, those trades occourred just before 9/11; if some1 was informed much earlier than a couple of days before the attacks where spikes in put tradin' occourred they prolly would have had the time to position themselves in a more secretive fashion...8/9 sept are the days where the unusual acitvities begun...i frankly wouldnt expect anyone to establish an offshore account ready to trade in such a short period of time. those trades were greed driven, the insiders who initiated the puts transactions thought they could get away with and many infact did, that's as simple as that.

    the commission investigation was superficial and misleadin', coverin' only aspects that couldnt be disputed. if the government was involved in it do u think an investigation conducted by partisan members and other people directly connected with the state could be trusted upon? this is where your arguments fall apart as well.

    also your statements about the conspiratorial sites does nothin' to diminsh the credibilty of the evidence available and may i say the lack of it. i have not noticed the massive pattern of deception thx to those domains. undisputable photographic evidence, witnesses and scholars studies have made me change my mind about what really happened that day. it's a chain of events and testimonies by the white house and many victims that tell the tale not all the speculation about what happened to the passengers of flight 77.
  88. you have over 3000 murders and billions in damage and we cant find out who benefitted from the spike in volume of those puts??? you are smokin crack. if this money trail had led to arabs they woulda plastered that shit on cnnfoxabcnbccbs faster than you sold ur soul. yet... padilla was obviously not involved in a "dirty bomb" conspiracy but you relish his lack of due process? wtfffffffffff ?????

    watch it come down... it is a controlled demo.... no ifs ands or buts. it is the starting point for all other disagreements.

    as far as the kennedy assasination... WATCH HIS HEAD GO BACK.... HE WAS HIT FROM THE FRONT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  92. Guy with his intellect can't be a good trader.

    Then again, I know a couple of traders who are the dumbest shit-for-brains morons who could'nt tell their ass hole from their mouth even if their life depended on it. If this retard actually trades, he's probably like them.

  93. The Padilla affair is very fishy. I'm wondering if he's a street rat for the CIA gone bad.
  94. I will summarize the case, then move on because there is no point in repeating:

    Generally I don't trust the government. Thus when one government body investigates another one, I tend to be suspicious, and highly sceptical. Using common sense also help a lot.
    The SEC never finished its investigation or issued a closing finding on it. I find that interesting. The 911 Commission is a different body with different goals. It was against their best interest to find anybody in the government with foreknowledge of the attacks and not trying to prevent it.
    The media first reported widely the unusual stock and option activities, but when it started to come out that the put buyings were done not by the terrorists but by people on our side, the whole news were dropped like hot potato.
    The difference in probabilities in a game and in crime is huge.
    I buy 1 coincidence, I even buy 2 coincidences, but when we have 10 of them, we have a smoking gun.

    Let's get a quick list of companies with unusual activities for the last time:

    - airlines: UAL, AMR
    - financial :Merrill, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America
    - military: Raytheon
    - reinsurance: Munich Re, AXA group, Swiss Re
    - 5 year US treasury notes

    Again, we have 10 coincidences here. But the biggest coincidence is Mr. Krongard, an executive director of the CIA who used to chair the very same unit of Detusche Bank where most of the put buying occured in Germany. 3 days later the executive for the very same unit (Alex Brown) resigns without any explanation. Geee, that's what I call coincidence!

    Now going back to the Commission report, they only explained the 2 airlines, not in a very statisfactory way. Funny thing was they brought up AIG, but nobody asked them about AIG. It looks like they were happy to find an explanation and threw it in to help their case.

    Quote from Pabst:

    but don't get hung up on BS like 900% of normal volume, blah , blah, blah. Equity options aren't real volume heavy. I've seen stocks that trade 30 options a day suddenly trade 10,000 in a day because a random manager decides to use some esoteric strategy.

    I know but it would have helped the SEC/Commission's case if they pointed out a few examples in the week prior 9/11. And see what I said about 10 coincidences.

    I would BET BLIND that we would find a couple of DOZEN stocks with weird volume preceeding 9/11.

    Don't bet, show. :)

    But again, we are getting back to probabilities. Let's say you find 20 more unrelated companies with unusually high option volume. That would be still 30% high volume activities happening in 9/11 related companies, and compared to that we have like 6000 stocks, a very low probability.

    No one SMART enough to concoct this plan would be STUPID enough to trade U.S. Exchange traded options.

    Well, a good point but:

    - there are stupid criminals too. So just because we think it is stupid to do so, that doesn't prevent people actually doing it.

    - what if we had more people/groups doing the buying and they all diversified (thus buying relative small number of puts), but they happened to diversify all into the same companies, thus altogether made a splash?

    Generally I agree, I had just shorted ES, the most liquid future and nobody would have ever noticed the volume. But the guys forgot to call me first...
  95. I found this gem on coincidences: :)

    "Dylan Ratigan of Bloomberg Business News, speaking of the trading on Morgan Stanley and other companies, says, “This would be one of the most extraordinary coincidences in the history of mankind if it was a coincidence.” [ABC News, 9/20/2001]"
  96. If anything, a lack of unusual activity would be a better indicator of a government conspiracy.

    It would be astonishingly stupid if Al-Qaeda, (and all their co-conspirators) didn't short the markets leading up to the 9/11.

    It's funny how people so often arrive at the exact wrong conclusion when that conclusion supports their preconceived notions of the world. (IE; Bush is hilter, Republicans are Nazi's, the world is going to end because Bush is the anti-christ, etc ....)

    One has to develop a sense-of humor because reading such lapses in logic might drive you mad, and the internet is saturated with all varieties of ridiculous non-sense of this sort.
  97. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2005/180305groundzero.htm

    you all know i love pabst.. he is my favorite POODLE. here you go POODLE.. watch this and enjoy your master admitting to the controlled demolition.


    seriously... facts are facts here...

    man this pisses me off :(

  99. the building was brought down allright, that's pretty obvious...still, it is really not the smokin' gun but raises questions about the attacks since the guy who owned wt7 sort of decided for no apparent reason it was time to collect some free insurance money.

  100. Sorry ratboy but a NY Larry will never be my master. There IS a pecking order, bro.

    A few errors in this flick undermine it's credibility.

    1. Marvin Bush had left Securacom over a year prior to 9/11.

    2. Rudolph Giuliani can only wish he'd made "hundreds of millions" in the terror advisement biz.

    3. Silverstein paid 3.2 billion for the leases. I don't know where the filmmaker gets the notion of a $200mil price with a 3 bil profit.

    As far as revealing, there's really no new ground. Hardly a "smoking gun." Where were the explosives purchased? By whom? Who "wired" the building (s)?

    As far the insinuation that WTC 1&2 were "pulled". Laughable. If they were pre-wired then why the "need" for hijacked planes. Wouldn't the cleaner conspiracy be to blame it on a bomb ala 1993. Just stick a few Arabs in a van in the garage and call it a day. With all of the thousands of police, fire, rescue and on lookers standing outside why did only a handful purportedly hear an "explosion" prior? Some don't think a jumbo jet with a full payload of fuel could cause the collapse but a silent demolition could? If so, THEN WHY HAVE AIRPLANES INVOLVED!Very few compelling common sense questions are answered.

  101. Not disagreeing with you regarding your stance on the events of 9/11, I would just like to hear your opinion as to why WTC7 fell. Not a quote from someone else. Just a true honest opinion you have formed as to why.

    Thanks :)
  102. I don't know why. 7 could have been "pulled". There was mucho classified stuff in the building, it was safely evacuated and many hours passed before it went down.

    I wouldn't extrapolate anything about the day's events from the fate of that single building.
  103. man u need to watch the tv news archive and listen carefully the series of unexplained explosions comin' from the towers...i recall 'em all pretty well and at the time i asked my self what the fuck it was since they sounded like bombs [and i didn't obviously have a clue about this whole affair]. tv networks reported them one by one as soon as u could hear em with tantalizin' red alerts on the bottom of the screen. how on earth did u miss 'em...u just cannot dismiss 'em easily.
  104. WTC 7 came down AFTER WTC 1&2, I believe......

    Didn't Silverstein and the fire chief have a discussion about the improbability of saving 7, after 1&2 fell?

    Don't you think that the further loss of firefighters was on their mind when they had that discussion?

    Do you actually believe that Silverstein would admit to the press that he made a voluntary decision to demolish the building?

    Don't you think that a guy that was this prepared to demolish the building, (if in fact he aided in pre positioning explosives in 7) would be prepared to deal with the press without "outing" himself?

    Remember, this is a sharp dude, a very sucessful businessman.....
  105. If I understand you correctly, then Silverstein may have conspired to take down a building, then not tell the public what happpened.

    Is this what you are saying?

  106. LOL-

    Go troll someone else
  107. That is your final answer to a straighforward question?


  108. To all you controlled demolition fools: please explain the asymmetry of failure when the second tower hit begins to fall.
  109. forget the rest of the clip... all i am talking about is 7. larry admitted he pulled it or gave permission. at that point a huge can of worms has been opened, thats why 7 is so fkn important. if someone can not see that now... they are hopeless.
  110. i have never said tower 2 was a controlled demo... but i sure as hell say without any doubt that 7 was. watch it.. that is symmetry at its best. not to mention..... larry FKN ADMITS IT PEOPLE !!!!!


    the question is not if.. it is HOW? it takes weeks to prep..... this means pre-knowledge. lets find out who wired the bldg... see where that trail leads us.

    i dont want to hear anymore neocon bullshit.... what do they have to hide??? lets get the truth.
  111. Agree.... we need to work backward here....

    Find how who/what/where/why about any knowledge about wtc7 being wired so it can be "pulled" and find out where the trail leads...

    You are not wiring a building for demo in a couple hours..lol
  112. You can't be serious! Please tell me you are not another trolling moron stuck on the <official smoke and mirrors> mantra.

    Typically 50% of controlled demolitions have some deviation from the vertical. 33% have some clear tipping effect as compared the building footprint. Keep in mind these were the tallest ever brought down. So one of the towers 1/3 = 33% one of the 3 buildings, had a small asymmetry, and that supports your point?
    Look it up, watch the videos. Sheeeshhh

    After seeing all the media films, the firefighters interviews, live communications at the time, only a complete idiot will not conclude it was a controlled demolition.